BRZ vs. Focus ST

[perryair]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Yes, what more? That's part of the problem.

I grew up on the tail end of the affordable sports car era. In 1970 you could buy an MGB brand new off the lot for $3000, which equates to about $17K today. A $4500 TR6 was considered expensive, but that was about the same financial impact as a BRZ today. You had MG, Triumph, Austin Healey, Sunbeam, Fiat, Datsun, Alfa Romeo and even Porsche trying to get in on the affordable two-seater. Through the '70s a person of fairly modest means could afford an MGA, MGB, MG Midget, MGC, MGB GT, Spitfire, GT6, TR2, TR3, TR4, TR250, TR6, TR7, TR8, Stag, Spider (Fiat), Spider (Alfa), Sprite, 914, 240Z, 3000, X1/9 and several others I'm forgetting.

Jesus, look at that list. What the fuck happened to the affordable sports car? Yeah, what more exactly do we have today to take their place?

Fucking Civics. When the manufacturers stopped offering affordable sports cars, people took shitty economy cars and turned them into sports car substitutes. Those of us who had owned real sports cars laughed at the "tuners" pumping tens of thousands of dollars into their shitboxes. We kinda stopped laughing when we realized those shitboxes were all that were left in that market segment.

But we never accepted those shitboxes as "sports cars," because they aren't. It's not about being an elitist, because there was nothing whatsoever about an MGB, Fairlady Z or X1/9 that could be considered "elite." It's about recognizing a sports car for a sports car and turbocharged econobox as a poor substitute that will end up in the junk yard when the engine blows. No matter how much ketchup I put on it, tofu on a bun will never be hamburger. Ever.

So now these kids who have grown up not having any idea what a real affordable sports car is think a Mazda 3, Civic, Evo, Impreza, Neon SRT or Ford Focus fits the bill. They don't. They're just tofu with more artificial texture and flavor added.

as cars have just generally gotten better and people have become more used to having their cars do the work for them, there's just not a ton of people who (pardon my French) give half a shit about driving a slow car fast, rowing your own gears and tail sliding around a corner. but that's just the way it is. if you can take a craponobox Impreza and turn it into a wrx sti, that's not a half bad package, which while it may never be the websters definition of a sports car, ticks off a ton of boxes for someone who appreciates those things. ditto with the upcoming civic type r or the mustang gt350 or the focus rs, not many folks will deny them their due because they share a platform with a base model pos.

then even taking it half a step down, something like the fiesta st is what quite a few entry level auto crossers buy and drive. can we say that their choice is invalid because they didn't decide to buy a 'real' sports car? not really.

even half the people on this board only buy a twin to get 'stanced' or to then trade it in and complain it's too 'slow'. the old world is dying and we either change with it or get left behind. I'm glad that Subaru/Toyota makes the car at all and if it gets cross shopped against less sports sporty cars, I'll take it.

[krayzie]

I blame the vast long straight roads in North America for people's general misconception of what a real sports car should be.

[computeruser]

I miss my MG Midget. Great car that was, Lucas electrics and all. My BRZ is nowhere near as fun as the MG, but it is still enjoyable and it is surely more fun than my Impreza, or the three Focuses I've owned (Gen1 was by far the best) over the past thirteen years.

I think the posts above suggesting that folks have lost any sense of the meaning, the experience, and the joy that a classically-conceived sports car offers are correct. Folks don't get it. But why would they if all they've known are modern "sporty" cars and the lifestyle that comes with them?

Ironically, the places where our cars really shine are becoming harder and harder to find. We don't build twisty roads anymore, we build straight interstates. And even where we do have twisty roads, or at least mildly interesting ones, the traffic volumes knock the fun right out of them. Hence, I think, the appeal of the stoplight rocket - you can actually experience the benefit of that platform regularly, whereas we have to go out of our way (or to a track) to derive the benefits that our vehicle platform offers.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Jesus, look at that list. What the fuck happened to the affordable sports car? Yeah, what more exactly do we have today to take their place?

Off the top of my head here's what is available on the market that was built in the last 15 years that are all affordable right now, by the way I totally agree with you that it's not nearly as good as it was but there are more options than next to nothing.
Miata (2 gens), RX8, S2000, 350Z, 370Z, MR-S, Z3 and Boxster (priced competitive with S2k), Pontiac Sky/Saturn Solstice and, arguably the Genesis.


At the same time I would almost argue that the 86 isn't really a sports car, as a 2+2 coupe built with a fair amount of practicality and day to day livability we certainly don't sacrifice nearly as much as the British sports cars of old.

Love this article:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...dgets-and-men/

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Off the top of my head here's what is available on the market that was built in the last 15 years that are all affordable right now, by the way I totally agree with you that it's not nearly as good as it was but there are more options than next to nothing.
Miata (2 gens), RX8, S2000, 350Z, 370Z, MR-S, Z3 and Boxster (priced competitive with S2k), Pontiac Sky/Saturn Solstice and, arguably the Genesis.

The difference is that those are affordable as used cars. Like I said above, you could go into an MG dealer in 1970 and put down $3000 for a brand new MGB. After inflation, that's around $17K in today's dollars.

Where can I find a brand new $17K bare bones sports car? Smart actually made a tiny, somewhat affordable roadster ten years ago that never made it to the US. Japanese manufacturers keep teasing us with kei car sports cars that I doubt will ever be sold here. Otherwise there's nothing.

Toyota has hinted at bringing a sub-$20K sports car to market, and Tada even said outright in an interview that they wanted to put the FT-1 above the 86 platform with a cheaper car below the 86 as an entry-level sports car. I'd like to believe it, but I have no faith that will ever happen.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

The difference is that those are affordable as used cars. Like I said above, you could go into an MG dealer in 1970 and put down $3000 for a brand new MGB. After inflation, that's around $17K in today's dollars.

Where can I find a brand new $17K bare bones sports car? Smart actually made a tiny, somewhat affordable roadster ten years ago that never made it to the US. Japanese manufacturers keep teasing us with kei car sports cars that I doubt will ever be sold here. Otherwise there's nothing.

Toyota has hinted at bringing a sub-$20K sports car to market, and Tada even said outright in an interview that they wanted to put the FT-1 above the 86 platform with a cheaper car below the 86 as an entry-level sports car. I'd like to believe it, but I have no faith that will ever happen.

Right, and a 1970 911 cost $8k which works out to $50k inflation adjusted, where can I get a rear engined 2+2 luxury tourer for that kind of money? In 1970 the Mustang Boss 302 was $3.7k, so less than $23k inflation adjusted, where can I get a V8 pony car for that money? The base Ford Falcon, the everyman economy car was $2.4k, $15k in today's money, how many cars are priced that low? Everything has skewed up, don't pretend lightweight RWD sports cars are special in that calculation you've done.

Just gotta keep buying 'em so they'll keep making 'em.

[T-Steve]

This is a great topic I have seen every few years in many venues.


The classic "sports car" definition used to be something like this: Front engine, rear drive, two seats. Sometimes only convertibles, also. Thus, many argue that some cars aren't "sports cars" and people get offended.


So someone owns a "sporty 2+2" or a "hot hatch" or a "muscle car" or even "a very fast sedan that is more comfortable and has better track times than my sports car". But they are offended that their car is not a "sports car".


What does that even mean?


Or is "sports car" more something about joy of driving, responsiveness, road feel, and visceral things like that?

[Captain Snooze]

If the owner of a Focus ST enjoys driving their car what difference does it make on what you call it.

[Captain Snooze]

Driver A: This is a sports car.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Driver B: No, it isn't.
Driver A: Yes, it is.
Ad nauseum

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

If the owner of a Focus ST enjoys driving their car what difference does it make on what you call it.

Exactly. I think the issue is people view "sports car" as some sort of bragging right or statement about speed, when it's really just a classification of car. It's not an insult to say a Camaro or Evo isn't a sports car, but insecure owners take it that way.

I think the 1LE Camaro is an incredible value (actually thinking about getting a 2016+ model), but I wouldn't try to lump it into the sports car category. It's just a very fast modern muscle car that handles well for its size. And I'm fine with that. It will destroy many modern "sports cars" at the track.

Originally Posted by T-Steve

The classic "sports car" definition used to be something like this: Front engine, rear drive, two seats. Sometimes only convertibles, also.

Lightweight is probably a key attribute too.

[wbradley]

I think the car Toyota initially aimed to market a step below the 86 might have ended up being be the Daihatsu Copen, Japan/overseas market only, with discussion about getting it into other markets (Scion?). Honda has the S660 which looks cool too if it could work here.

If the 86's were flying off the lots they might have have pushed thru with the initial plan.

There's the FT1? Concept at car shows until there's enough indication a sufficient number of people will buy it. So, they have time to get everything right and its probably better not to rush to market anyway.

[why?]

Look I hate muscle cars, but when the top of the line Camaro can actually match Porsche's latest supercar at times, it is a sports car. And if you missed C&D's latest lightning lap, go read it, it is amazing.

But what happened? Easy, the British sports car were sabotaged by a moron who made terrible parts that leaked oil on purpose, and the baby boomer generation grew up. In 1982 over a quarter of a million Supra's were sold. My father, who bought one of those Supra's to daily drive, (still has it by the way), just bought a Lincoln MKZ hybrid for a daily driver. I'm sure there are more out there that just want a feature laden comfortable car, and you just can't get that in a sports car for reasonable money.

If Subaru and Toyota even sold 20,000 twins a year they would have made the case for the two door sports car again. But while they still sell more than the miata, it is not by enough. People just don't want small cars any more.

[echo419]

just say the words. Ford Focus. still think it's a good idea?

[Levi]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

At the same time I would almost argue that the 86 isn't really a sports car, as a 2+2 coupe built with a fair amount of practicality and day to day livability we certainly don't sacrifice nearly as much as the British sports cars of old.

By that definition 911 isn't a sportscar either.