Frs vs s2000

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Just the amount of equipment from the factory.

- Oil cooler - factory on S2k, none on FRS/BRZ.
- full alignment capability front/rear - factory on S2k, toe only on FRS/BRZ
- Aerodyanmics - S2k makes significant front downforce. Rear downforce is easy to make with a wing

If you compare the drivetrain, the S2k has:
- Bulletproof engine
- Much stronger transmission (early figure indicate the S2k trans can handle around 80% more torque than the BRZ/FRS before giving out)
- Stronger axles/CVs

A lot of these strengths are due to the engineering tolerances being cut to reduce cost on the FRS/BRZ.

FRS/BRZ advantages:
- Modern Technology
- More aerodynamic (less drag, less rear lift)
- less NVH

S2k Advantages:
- huge front downforce from the factory
- designed to be unstable (think fighter jets... theyre purposely made to be unstable to promote maneuverability) This makes the car want to rotate whether you want it to or not... which is why so many s2ks are totalled by spins on the street.

Hmm...thx. I had no idea the S2000 had such a large advantage w/ front end DF/lift over the 86. I was already planning to tweak a few things up front but I'll have to look into that. I know the Griffon offers an insight into some obvious solutions and areas to look at.

Yeah, I get dynamic instability and requisite fly by wire. This is why my MR is my more serious car until it's replaced. Honestly the 86 was bought as my DD/grocery getter/commuter. IT's my idea of fun and practicality, not serious speed but I'd like to maximize that potential w/o compromising the rest by making an efficient Jack of all Trades package.
_____

Ice-mode braking. Yeah...tell me about it.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by thill

Yeah, all you can hope for is another TSB for another issue that requires a reflash to a newer flash that contains the DI fix...

Otherwise you are looking at something like Ecutek which is around $1K for license and cable...

And also voiding the factory warranty.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I went back to the cheapest car I had sitting around. Walls = DGAF anymore

I'm thinking about getting a cheap ITR again, lol.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

Love all the data

Really shows how fast the s2000 is. And that's an NA s2000 vs. turbo BRZ right?

EDIT: Damn I'm driving *slow* at that track. I enter T9 ~40-50 mph slower than you lol I need more track days. Hopefully next month I should be going to both Big Willow & Streets.

Correct, NA s2ks with minor, if any weight reduction (usually around ~100 lbs between seats, exhaust, and running 1/4 tank of gas) so they're around 2750 lbs before driver, so they're technically lighter than Ted's BRZ.

WSIR is, IMO, the most challenging track local to us. I'm still not satisfied with my laps there, and I'm probably at close to 200 laps there. I know guys that have done thousands of laps that are still not happy with their laps.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by AyJay

I'm not necessarily following the cutting edge of development on this ... but I have looked a little bit at what it offers as far as DI fixes.

http://procedetuning.com/BRZ_FR-S/FA...ash/index.html

They even talk about it in their FAQ's:
Do the Off-the-shelf (OTS) OpenFlash maps incorporate the Direct Injector seal fix?
Yes. All OpenFlash OTS maps are based upon the newest factory software with DI seal fix. So even if you have old software without the fix, flashing your ECU with any of our OTS maps will give you the fix.

The $1M question then becomes ...

Is a flash from this device detectable by the dealership?
Each modified ROM file is based upon the original ROM. In this ROM file, you have all the mapping data and the software ID data. Typically, you will only ever want to modify the mapping data. Which means the software IDs will be untouched and stock-looking upon basic inspection. However, it is possible for the dealership to conduct a more thorough inspection of the ECU code. Which is why we recommend flashing the original ROM file back into the ECU at your own discretion.


All that being said, I'd rather not pay a single cent for something that TOYOTA should be fixing for free! Are you listening TOYOTA?!?

All flashes are detectable, period. It takes very little for the dealership to know. Whether the dealership knows or not doesn't matter; its what the person who authorizes the warranty coverage cares about.

Additionally, ECUTek allows you to change maps on the fly, and has access to more tables. I expect other solutions to catch up to ECUTek's sophistication at some point, but at this moment, ECUTek is still the clear winner.

ECUTek is what we will be using, and we have zero affiliation with them. We are not sponsored, and carefully evaluate all options on the market before making a decision (as with all products on our car). For example, that's why we have multiple brand wheels in our collection, and try every brake pad we can get our hands on.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Hmm...thx. I had no idea the S2000 had such a large advantage w/ front end DF/lift over the 86. I was already planning to tweak a few things up front but I'll have to look into that. I know the Griffon offers an insight into some obvious solutions and areas to look at.

Yeah, I get dynamic instability and requisite fly by wire. This is why my MR is my more serious car until it's replaced. Honestly the 86 was bought as my DD/grocery getter/commuter. IT's my idea of fun and practicality, not serious speed but I'd like to maximize that potential w/o compromising the rest by making an efficient Jack of all Trades package.
_____

Ice-mode braking. Yeah...tell me about it.

To elaborate...

The S2000 makes significant front downforce, and rear lift. The rear lift is just bad engineering, but the front downforce is significant. Why? Because making downforce creates drag. Why would you increase drag on a production car? It hurts your MPG rating, a lot!

However, making front downforce is DIFFICULT. If you look at time attack cars, you'll notice they all have crazy front ends, but relatively tame rear ends, typically just a wing and diffuser. The front will have completely custom bumpers, giant splitters, canards, etc.

This is what makes the S2k superior at bolt-on levels. Slap on a splitter and big wing on a stock S2k, and you suddenly have a machine that is making a SIGNIFICANT amount of downforce on all four corners.

With ImperiousRex's BRZ, we run his wing at the lowest possible height, and with absolutely minimum angle of attack. Coincidentally, the lowest setting on both is what balances out his front aero, and the long term plan is to expand the front aero so that more rear aero can be ran.

Stock for stock, the BRZ's aero is flat out (excuse the pun) better. It generates less drag, and is much more stable at speed.

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

All flashes are detectable, period. It takes very little for the dealership to know. Whether the dealership knows or not doesn't matter; its what the person who authorizes the warranty coverage cares about.

Additionally, ECUTek allows you to change maps on the fly, and has access to more tables. I expect other solutions to catch up to ECUTek's sophistication at some point, but at this moment, ECUTek is still the clear winner.

ECUTek is what we will be using, and we have zero affiliation with them. We are not sponsored, and carefully evaluate all options on the market before making a decision (as with all products on our car). For example, that's why we have multiple brand wheels in our collection, and try every brake pad we can get our hands on.

I agree that you are taking on a significant risk with the reflash once you get past the scrutiny of the average dealership tech. One of the main reasons I'm holding out hope for the TOYOTA flash.

However, if you are someone like me who is really only interested in acquiring ZA1JA01C (and possibly more tuning later) then I would still spend $500 on OpenFlash vs. $1k on ECUTek.

[DarkSunrise]

An interesting question is how would Toyota view a car that's been flashed with a stock ZA1JA01C tune and nothing else? It's their exact tune, so it'd be odd for them to deny warranty on it.

Basically you'd be paying $500 on OpenFlash to update to the latest OEM tune.

[aCab]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Austin has returned

:hay:

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by aCab

:hay:

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Walls = DGAF anymore

I definitely DGAF on what I'm racing. I just want big grids, competitive racing and affordability.

I spent over $12k this year racing and I didn't even do a full season (but still won the championship ). That's in ITA! I'm averaging $1000/weekend to go play with the race car if I'm not racing on Hoosiers. Racing on R6's puts me at $1200/weekend average.

If I upgrade the CRX racecar for an S2000 race car, even if I keep the engine stock, it will increase my the operating cost to roughly $1700/weekend. Brakes, tires, axles, engines and rebuilds along with fuel burn rates, all go up. This doesn't even take into account body damage which is far cheaper to repair on the CRX than the S2000.

[Billylammerkins]

Test drove both.

Pros/Cons for s2000
+ Convertible
+ Slightly faster
- Older
- Little to no trunk/interior space
- Expensive for used

Pros/Cons for FR-S/BRZ
+ Although slower, still EXTREMELY FUN to drive
+ Decent interior/trunk space
+ Sexy as hell
+ Can buy new or used
+ Lower insurance rate
+ SEXY AS HELL
+ A lot of space for modding
- Slower then the s2000

My thoughts?
Get the FR-S, especially if its going to be your DD. Although it is slower, who really cares unless you are on the track all the time?

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I used my car at the track quite a bit and it's an early car * (May '12 delivery). Fortunate I guess, but no issues yet. I've stopped tracking it but the DI issue was only a minor reason.

You sell your R2 yet? lol

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Billylammerkins

Test drove both.

Pros/Cons for s2000
+ Convertible
+ Slightly faster
- Older
- Little to no trunk/interior space
- Expensive for used

Pros/Cons for FR-S/BRZ
+ Although slower, still EXTREMELY FUN to drive
+ Decent interior/trunk space
+ Sexy as hell
+ Can buy new or used
+ Lower insurance rate
+ SEXY AS HELL
+ A lot of space for modding
- Slower then the s2000

My thoughts?
Get the FR-S, especially if its going to be your DD. Although it is slower, who really cares unless you are on the track all the time?

I care every time I'm merging onto a Southern California Highway/freeway... especially the ones with REALLY short onramps where you need to be going 65+ in less than 200 ft.