follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting

Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-17-2020, 05:21 PM   #99
Icecreamtruk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Drives: Track preped NA FRS
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 987
Thanks: 1,056
Thanked 680 Times in 405 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
So much shit slinging on this post. Guys, let people do whatever they want with their car/engine. People seem to be very headstrong when it comes to their beliefs, let them enjoy their car with whatever oil and/or oil cooler (or lack of). I have enough anecdotal evidence and data to form my own opinion, and so should everyone on this thread.
Icecreamtruk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Icecreamtruk For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (11-18-2020), Dzmitry (11-18-2020), TommyW (11-17-2020)
Old 11-17-2020, 05:23 PM   #100
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,567
Thanks: 1,368
Thanked 3,879 Times in 2,024 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rice_classic View Post
Pretty good video on hydrodynamic bearings. He briefly covers the sensitivity to wear at start up and shut down but does a great job explaining how the hydrodynamic wedge works. It helps visualize why maintaining proper viscosity is important when load is taken into account but also the importance of multi-viscosity oils to help minimize wear at start up.
Good video!

Takeaways:
Molasses = delicious
Kerosene = not-so-delicious

Would not recommend either of those for FA20 bearings!
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (11-18-2020), Dzmitry (11-18-2020), Petah78 (11-17-2020), rice_classic (11-17-2020)
Old 11-17-2020, 07:27 PM   #101
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,567
Thanks: 1,368
Thanked 3,879 Times in 2,024 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk View Post
So much shit slinging on this post.
Where?!

Quote:
Guys, let people do whatever they want with their car/engine. People seem to be very headstrong when it comes to their beliefs, let them enjoy their car with whatever oil and/or oil cooler (or lack of).
If this forum isn't for rationally and logically discussing how and why we set up our cars for the track, then what is it for? We should be able to air ideas out in a free and open discussion.

I've said where I'm coming from not because I think I'm 100% RIGHT, fwiw. it's an opportunity to see if I've missed something critical and am wrong! But I do feel confident enough in my position that when somebody asks "Is an oil cooler absolutely necessary?" in the context of post #1, I'm gonna tell them "no."

Quote:
I have enough anecdotal evidence and data to form my own opinion, and so should everyone on this thread.
My mind is open to being changed on this subject if my reasoning is shown to be wrong or if there's evidence I may not be aware of.
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (11-18-2020), DarkPira7e (11-17-2020), Dzmitry (11-18-2020), racingfool (11-18-2020), Ultramaroon (11-17-2020)
Old 11-17-2020, 09:24 PM   #102
rice_classic
Senior Member
 
rice_classic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: Nevermorange FRS
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,160
Thanks: 755
Thanked 4,200 Times in 1,803 Posts
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
I didn’t see any saltiness in this thread and I’ve really enjoyed the links, graphs, charts and discussion.

The only thing that pisses me off is that all makes me want to go racing and I’m not back on track till April and that’s depressing... but also necessary to replenish the racing budget.
__________________
SCCA T4 - FRS
rice_classic is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to rice_classic For This Useful Post:
Compelica (11-18-2020), CSG Mike (11-18-2020), Dzmitry (11-18-2020), norcalpb (11-19-2020), racingfool (11-18-2020), Ultramaroon (11-17-2020)
Old 11-18-2020, 12:32 AM   #103
Icecreamtruk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Drives: Track preped NA FRS
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 987
Thanks: 1,056
Thanked 680 Times in 405 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I mean, maybe thats now how you guys who are in the discussion perceive it, but to me, just coming to read the latests few posts it just looks like people with different opinions on the necessity and utility of oil coolers trying to convince each other that they have the hot potato.
@ZDan im not going to expose or detail my experience and data because it actually is much less scientific and detailed that everything posted here. But I also have seen enough "cases" to where I stopped believing in coincidences.
Icecreamtruk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Icecreamtruk For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (11-18-2020)
Old 11-18-2020, 04:04 AM   #104
racingfool
Senior Member
 
racingfool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Drives: Miata
Location: Seattle
Posts: 241
Thanks: 86
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk View Post
just coming to read the latests few posts
If I don't have something nice to say I usually refrain from posting.
racingfool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 04:34 AM   #105
racingfool
Senior Member
 
racingfool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Drives: Miata
Location: Seattle
Posts: 241
Thanks: 86
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by racingfool View Post
what is the minimum oil temp before driving it hard up to redline (full synthetic)?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndlessAzure View Post
Based on personal experience, I wouldn't redline the car until at least 70C/160F on oil temp
Thanks.
Looking at the charts posted I might go a little lower if running 30wt.

I see autocrossers bouncing off the limiter after only 5 minutes of idling.
Probably wouldn't get away with that in the days before synthetic oil.

Quote:





racingfool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 08:17 AM   #106
Dzmitry
Senior Member
 
Dzmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Drives: 2018 Subaru BRZ Limited with PP
Location: Phildalphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 975
Thanks: 2,122
Thanked 609 Times in 391 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86league View Post
This didn't convert to google sheets seamlessly, but the data and basics of the graphs came through. For several 0w-20/5w-30 and I think an 0w-30 I took the quoted viscosity at 40/100C and did the Arrhenius Fit (v=A * exp(Ea/RT)) to get viscosity vs temperature.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

The 0w-20's are pretty tightly clustered, the 5w-30 oils have more variation.

I also did the same for the viscosity #'s blackstone labs gave me for my 0w-20 run and my 5w-30 run. The 5w-30 degraded more but stayed above the 0w-20 (naturally) and was close to fresh 0w-20 oils.

I also drew a horizontal line at 8cSt and a gray box from 210-220F on the excel file - that didn't make it to the google sheets graph. I can't remember why I put those in though...





The low temp graph shows how quickly things climb when temperatures get cold though. Thickest 5w-30 vs the thinnest 0w-20 is approaching 2x.



When things get hot the oil really thins out. My used 0w-20 is at about 3.5 at 266F, a new 5w-30 would be around 5. With a oil cooler pulling it back to 240ish F, you would be back to ~5 with the used 0w-20, and 7-8 for fresh 5w-30.

For my fair weather texas car I decided to run 5w-30 for a little more viscosity for high temps on track.
I think the used oil values are very useful. Out of curiosity, how used were these oils when you tested them in terms of mileage or track usage?
Dzmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 11:00 AM   #107
86league
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Drives: '13 BRZ Limited
Location: League City, TX
Posts: 195
Thanks: 16
Thanked 100 Times in 60 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzmitry View Post
I think the used oil values are very useful. Out of curiosity, how used were these oils when you tested them in terms of mileage or track usage?
The lower viscosity used 0w-20 was from my car at 3500 miles and my first 4 track weekends (8 20 min sessions per). This was with Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy. I switched to 5w-30 after this.

The higher viscosity used 0w-20 was from a friends car - 5000 miles and I think 4 track weekends (daily driver). Not sure what brand - I'll see if I can find out.

The used 5w-30 (Castrol Edge 5w-30) is my car again, with 4400 miles and 6.5 track weekends.
86league is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to 86league For This Useful Post:
Dzmitry (11-18-2020), Petah78 (11-18-2020)
Old 11-18-2020, 11:09 AM   #108
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,567
Thanks: 1,368
Thanked 3,879 Times in 2,024 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk View Post
I mean, maybe thats now how you guys who are in the discussion perceive it, but to me, just coming to read the latests few posts it just looks like people with different opinions on the necessity and utility of oil coolers trying to convince each other that they have the hot potato.
Honestly I don't understand how "you MUST have an oil cooler" became such a hard RULE. When I got my car, initially figured I'd *have* to get one as prescribed. First track day, oil temp climbed as expected, until it stopped at ~272F indicated and *held firm*. Right up until that moment I figured I'd be getting one. Nothing I've seen, read, or experienced since then suggests to me that I need one for my usage.

Any time this subject comes up, you can bet I will share my thoughts with people who want to track their cars but don't want to hassle with getting an oil cooler. I look forward to the day when it becomes common knowledge and I no longer have to explain at great lengths that no, you don't *HAVE* to run an oil cooler.


Quote:
@ZDan im not going to expose or detail my experience and data because it actually is much less scientific and detailed that everything posted here. But I also have seen enough "cases" to where I stopped believing in coincidences.
An engine failure without an oil cooler does not necessarily mean "engine failure because no oil cooler". Engines also fail *with* oil coolers...

It would be GREAT to have a database of FA20 engine failures with specifics like month of production, mods, miles, track hours, type of oil and rate of changes, etc. Then would could do some analysis and see if there *is* a correlation between engine failures and lack of oil coolers, or if other factors are more significant.
Actually we'd also have to keep statistics on tracked cars with engines that don't fail as well. Doesn't tell you anything if XX% of failures were with cars that didn't have an oil cooler if you don't know how many of the total population of tracked cars have an oil cooler...

Last edited by ZDan; 11-18-2020 at 12:25 PM.
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Dzmitry (11-18-2020), Petah78 (11-18-2020)
Old 11-18-2020, 12:31 PM   #109
DarkSunrise
Senior Member
 
DarkSunrise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Drives: 22 BRZ (Previously 13 FR-S)
Location: USA
Posts: 5,794
Thanks: 2,162
Thanked 4,242 Times in 2,220 Posts
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
We have evidence that with the same 5w30 oil, pressure is *the same* with or without an oil cooler. I.e. the oil being at a lower temp is offset by pressure drop due to the oil cooler:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820


Also, the risk of running an oil cooler is non-zero. Multiple incidents of lost engines and fires due to leaking oil cooler plumbing.

IMO, for *most* of us who track for ~15 minutes at a time a handful of times a year, an oil cooler is not necessary.
Does anyone know what oil cooler kit they were using for that testing? Size/shape of the oil cooler, fittings, and bends can play a role in how much pressure loss there is from the oil cooler, not to mention the effectiveness of the cooler itself in dropping oil temps.

A poorly designed undersized oil cooler might actually make things worse by causing a large pressure drop and not reducing oil temps significantly. Worst of both worlds.

Conversely a well designed, properly sized oil cooler that keeps temps in the 220’s and doesn’t create a large pressure drop would be undeniably beneficial for oil pressure on the track, especially paired with a 30 weight oil.

As with all things it’s likely to come down to the details.
__________________
"Never run out of real estate, traction, and ideas at the same time."

2022 BRZ Build
2013 FR-S Build
DarkSunrise is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to DarkSunrise For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (11-18-2020), Dzmitry (11-18-2020), Ultramaroon (11-18-2020), ZDan (11-18-2020)
Old 11-18-2020, 01:16 PM   #110
Dzmitry
Senior Member
 
Dzmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Drives: 2018 Subaru BRZ Limited with PP
Location: Phildalphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 975
Thanks: 2,122
Thanked 609 Times in 391 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Slightly off topic, but with gen2 release, nice to see they threw in their basic oil cooler into the car. Might be the perfect fix to more extreme temperatures. We'll have to see how it plays out.
Dzmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dzmitry For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (11-18-2020)
Old 11-18-2020, 01:29 PM   #111
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,567
Thanks: 1,368
Thanked 3,879 Times in 2,024 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Does anyone know what oil cooler kit they were using for that testing? Size/shape of the oil cooler, fittings, and bends can play a role in how much pressure loss there is from the oil cooler, not to mention the effectiveness of the cooler itself in dropping oil temps.
No idea unfortunately. Brings up a very good point though: what are most people gonna pick out if they "have to get an oil cooler"? The cheapest/crappiest one out there...

Quote:
As with all things it’s likely to come down to the details.
100% troof...
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (11-18-2020), DarkSunrise (11-18-2020), Dzmitry (11-18-2020)
Old 11-18-2020, 01:30 PM   #112
Icecreamtruk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Drives: Track preped NA FRS
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 987
Thanks: 1,056
Thanked 680 Times in 405 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
An engine failure without an oil cooler does not necessarily mean "engine failure because no oil cooler". Engines also fail *with* oil coolers...
You are 100% right, engines fail under all sort of circumstances and I have 0 ways of proving you are wrong at all. But based on what I've seen on track used cars, I'll stick to my approach. Like they say, YMMV. I also think there are a bunch of people who dont understand that because your oil can and will survive being held at 272F for a whole track day, that does not mean you can also do 5k miles oil intervale changes (while doing track work in between as well). Oil does degrade faster the hotter it gets (and not only engine oil, but transmissions and diff oil as well, which is never mentioned here apparently).
Icecreamtruk is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SOLD - RacerX Oil Cooler with Auto Transmission Cooler and Temp Gauge tws98 Engine, Exhaust, Bolt-Ons 0 05-28-2019 10:50 PM
Reliability mods? BigHugeFatGuy Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 83 08-12-2017 04:32 PM
Turbo Reliability VS Supercharger reliability KGB Forced Induction 130 09-08-2015 09:55 AM
FI Reliability pheonixone Forced Induction 42 02-22-2015 12:51 PM
Oil cooler for FRS & suggestion for other mods? varun Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 12 02-27-2014 11:02 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.