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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 10-20-2020, 03:24 PM   #15
Icecreamtruk
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Very good info on this thread, thanks for educating me on the subject, im always up for learning something new. I guess the way I was looking at the grip is all wrong then and that really is just the limit of how well my car can brake then. I do run -5 of camber up front so that probably also plays a big role. Good stuff.

Further supporting @ZDan 's point, from sim data and looking at my own data, you lose a lot more time on corner entry (after you initiate turn-in) than you do by braking a bit early and less strongly. My main gripe with ABS is when it starts intervening during trail braking. Sometimes is fine, sometimes its not. Maybe I have some faulty sensors in my car as well.

Im doing an engine swap on my car and plan to delete the ABS (and everything electronic aside the the ECM running the engine, fuel pump, dash and brake lights). Trying to make the car a bit faster while also stripping it of the modern technology aids to help further progress my driving skills.

@CSG Mike Do you know if you guys make the C2 (or any low friction high life pad) for the Stoptech C43 and C42 calipers (front and rear)? Im running on the ST33 compound from stoptech now and while I like it a bunch more than the hawk stuff, I feel like there might still be better stuff out there that suits my needs.
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Old 10-20-2020, 03:41 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk View Post
Very good info on this thread, thanks for educating me on the subject, im always up for learning something new. I guess the way I was looking at the grip is all wrong then and that really is just the limit of how well my car can brake then. I do run -5 of camber up front so that probably also plays a big role. Good stuff.

Further supporting @ZDan 's point, from sim data and looking at my own data, you lose a lot more time on corner entry (after you initiate turn-in) than you do by braking a bit early and less strongly. My main gripe with ABS is when it starts intervening during trail braking. Sometimes is fine, sometimes its not. Maybe I have some faulty sensors in my car as well.

Im doing an engine swap on my car and plan to delete the ABS (and everything electronic aside the the ECM running the engine, fuel pump, dash and brake lights). Trying to make the car a bit faster while also stripping it of the modern technology aids to help further progress my driving skills.

@CSG Mike Do you know if you guys make the C2 (or any low friction high life pad) for the Stoptech C43 and C42 calipers (front and rear)? Im running on the ST33 compound from stoptech now and while I like it a bunch more than the hawk stuff, I feel like there might still be better stuff out there that suits my needs.
If ABS is intervening during trail braking, then you're not trail braking, but rather, threshold braking.

If you get even temps with -5 camber, youre way too low.

C43 yes, C42, I don't think so. It's highly unlikely you need a rear bbk though.

I recommend reviewing your data and seeing if/when you're trail braking. Here's an example. The top of the brake bar is about 700 psi. Watch how the initial deceleration force is big, but as I trail in, I'm applying maybe 10-15% brake. Zero lockup in the front as indicated in the wheel speeds.




Fast forward to 2m 5s
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:12 PM   #17
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Funny you say this.

It's very easy to make a high friction high temp pad. It's very difficult (and expensive) to make a low friction high temp pad.

If those 3 pads are your standards, the C2 will blow your standard out of the water. If you already know the value of an enduro pad, I dare you to try the CE2 on the BRZ.
You are totally right about pricing. I've had my eye on that pad before. Trust me, I don't love the Pagids or PFC's as much anymore, both have flaws. Pagids lose performance big time after 50% worn, and PFC's generate too much heat and not much selection, but I just haven't had time to test the latest enduro offerings from other places. The ST42's definitely give up a bit of feel compared to those, but that's why the price is alot less too. It's just been a good balance of performance, longevity, and price thus far. I honestly forget you guys sell pads for all kinds of different cars/calipers.

I'll prob needs pads for one of my others cars long before the FRS. Been using Ferodo DS1.11 on my E92 M3 (AP Racing CP9660 Radi-CAL calipers) and GT3 simply because they make them for my calipers, but I still dislike how much initial bite they have, even for DE stuff, but they can certainly stop a 3000lb+ car down from 150mph...so I just deal with it. LOL.
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:38 PM   #18
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You are totally right about pricing. I've had my eye on that pad before. Trust me, I don't love the Pagids or PFC's as much anymore, both have flaws. Pagids lose performance big time after 50% worn, and PFC's generate too much heat and not much selection, but I just haven't had time to test the latest enduro offerings from other places. The ST42's definitely give up a bit of feel compared to those, but that's why the price is alot less too. It's just been a good balance of performance, longevity, and price thus far. I honestly forget you guys sell pads for all kinds of different cars/calipers.

I'll prob needs pads for one of my others cars long before the FRS. Been using Ferodo DS1.11 on my E92 M3 (AP Racing CP9660 Radi-CAL calipers) and GT3 simply because they make them for my calipers, but I still dislike how much initial bite they have, even for DE stuff, but they can certainly stop a 3000lb+ car down from 150mph...so I just deal with it. LOL.
Depending on the type of ramp you want, try the C2 or C21 for the 9660. If you want even more bang for the buck, swap for 9668, because the pads go from 18mm to 25mm (~5mm of that is backing plate) for only a tiny price increase.

Or, if you want to truly maximize life, try the CE2.


Most folk seem to prefer the C21 more on the "more boosted" braking systems.
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:12 PM   #19
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Depending on the type of ramp you want, try the C2 or C21 for the 9660. If you want even more bang for the buck, swap for 9668, because the pads go from 18mm to 25mm (~5mm of that is backing plate) for only a tiny price increase.

Or, if you want to truly maximize life, try the CE2.


Most folk seem to prefer the C21 more on the "more boosted" braking systems.
Thanks! C1 and CE2 are prob what I'm looking to try for the CP9660 for casual track day use. The DS1.11 is just too on-off to really finesse the car while on the brake, IMO. I honestly cannot fathom using a compound that aggressive on the FRS.

ST42 friction is supposedly .29 at 650C....so CE2 seems to be in the ballpark. My car only weighs 2350-ish#, so it just doesn't need much brake to slow it down.

I also like endurance stuff because it also tends to trail off more with heat at the end of the brake zone, so you can go in harder initially without worrying about ABS jumping in, and makes trail braking and the release more accurate and easier to finesse. They just seems to give you more operating head-space to work within the confines of street-ABS programs for track-days or racing.

But that's why there are countless types of pads, everybody has their preference!
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:57 PM   #20
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Thanks! C1 and CE2 are prob what I'm looking to try for the CP9660 for casual track day use. The DS1.11 is just too on-off to really finesse the car while on the brake, IMO. I honestly cannot fathom using a compound that aggressive on the FRS.

ST42 friction is supposedly .29 at 650C....so CE2 seems to be in the ballpark. My car only weighs 2350-ish#, so it just doesn't need much brake to slow it down.

I also like endurance stuff because it also tends to trail off more with heat at the end of the brake zone, so you can go in harder initially without worrying about ABS jumping in, and makes trail braking and the release more accurate and easier to finesse. They just seems to give you more operating head-space to work within the confines of street-ABS programs for track-days or racing.

But that's why there are countless types of pads, everybody has their preference!
Remember, those friction numbers and graphs published really mean nothing, because they're peak frictions at any given temp. The graphs and friction number tell nothing of how a pad responds, how stiff the pad is, how the pad ramps with pressure, how the pad modulates, and how the pad releases.

On the E9X, The C2 or C21 is going to be the proper starting point.

Also, remember, that the pad has to be matched to the braking system of a car, the weight, and the tire all combined. Everything is part of a system.

Likewise, if a theoretical 9660 was on a FRS/BRZ/86, I'd go straight to C11 or CE1 for a recommendation.
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Old 10-21-2020, 08:07 AM   #21
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From my own experience, which is worth whatever you think its worth, dont read too much into it, the ABS works, but it does not make it better, just easier.

Every time, in each braking zone I need to tip-toe around ABS activation. If im in a flying lap, squeezing every inch of track and time, and ABS kicks in during braking (specially early on), I'll miss that corner. Its not a huge margin, but missing proper turn-in point or going in too hot is a few tenths. A few tenths here and a few tenths there and boom, you are several seconds slower that you would be.

I tried just removing the ABS fuse, and while the braking distances stayed more or less the same, trailing the car into the corners felt more forced, it killed a lot of rotation.

I guess it all comes down to how you brake, but looking at the data, there is no reason my car can pull up to 1.3 to 1.6Gs lateral in most non banked corners, but only around 0.9 to 1G of braking. Its almost as if there is some sort of barrier that activates ABS after a certain threshold. It would be sweet if someone in hoosiers or slicks would post data with higher than 1G during braking while ABS is working.

Braking only 1G(mostly, with a slight turn in already initiated):


Lateral grip at apex 1.3G, almost 0 acceleration


Braking while turning, 0.8G braking, 1.1G turning, almost 2G total


So 2Gs total while only being able to produce 1G in braking makes no sense at all. Im sure you all know about the grip circle, seems like im driving on a grip square...

Edit: this was all with ABS on. Braking any stronger than that on that first image triggered ABS and made me run out of track a few times (barely missing going out).
I just got home from VIR. Still have ABS fully functional, it would kick in at braking into Rollercoaster (after the back straight) sometimes at the small kink after the arrow brake marker:

I'm on 225/40 R7s



Looking at GSum of the lap, here it is:

T1 Braking, 1.16
Braking into Oak Tree 11: 1.12
Oak Tree 12: 1.55
Braking into Roller Coaster: 1.32

My GSum Max calc shows full threshold into roller coaster braking. Meaning, physically I am extracting everything out of the car


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Funny you say this.

It's very easy to make a high friction high temp pad. It's very difficult (and expensive) to make a low friction high temp pad.

If those 3 pads are your standards, the C2 will blow your standard out of the water. If you already know the value of an enduro pad, I dare you to try the CE2 on the BRZ.
I'm currently running DS1.11s. Do you have a front pad fitment for the AP Racing Sprint Kits (Caliper CP8350)
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Old 10-21-2020, 01:18 PM   #22
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@M0nk3y I can see you don't pedal dance. Try pedal dancing and see if the car feels more natural to you. The E-diff and EBD is intervening, and I can see it in hogpen too.

Yes, C2 is made for the AP Sprint kits, to be paired with a C2 stock size rear.
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:27 PM   #23
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My 3 favorite pads of all time, are Pagid RS29...
They make a rear axel pad that seems to match up with that pad, anyone have any experience with it?

http://www.pagidracing.com/en/produc...sl/rsl-d1.html
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:08 AM   #24
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@M0nk3y I can see you don't pedal dance. Try pedal dancing and see if the car feels more natural to you. The E-diff and EBD is intervening, and I can see it in hogpen too.

Yes, C2 is made for the AP Sprint kits, to be paired with a C2 stock size rear.
Correct, I don't pedal dance. Came back from the autocross days where I actually didn't mind the EBD intervening as it'd actually help with rotation a bit sometimes on trail braking.

Next year I'll have to give it a go and see how I like it. We'll talk about C2s here soon. I just about went through another front set of DS1.11s
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Old 11-03-2020, 05:14 AM   #25
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EBD in theory has potential to make braking better, after all, not just adjusting bias between axles, but also individual wheels. Ability to dynamically adjust individual wheel brake torque much quicker then human's reaction can do really lot. Especially if it can be paired with other inputs then just wheel speed sensors to detect wheel slip, eg. G-sensor/speed/steering wheel position. There is reason, why in many racing types usage of electronics is strongly regulated/limited, because of potential to be more efficient then human. Problem i see, that it's programming imho too "street oriented", tending to shift bias more to understeer-ish result, which may make harder eg. trailbraking. But if it's limit, it's upto driver. And can be easily switched off with pedal dance anyway. As for basic ABS left .. don't think there is gain to switch it off .. proper treshold braking should not trigger it anyway, thinking of ABS rather as another easy to feel signal that i overbraked there.
As for CSG pads, i had experience only with CSG C1 ones (both front & rear ones), but wholly recommend them. Best braking feel i had on any pad, easing a lot treshold braking of just the right amount, and providing same feel across very wide temp range w/o noticeable difference by my imprecise "butt dyno".
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