Where does the track rabbit hole lead?

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Something that I never really thought about, but how about drifting? Again, probably not competitive, but at least some training. How does that work?

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

Something that I never really thought about, but how about drifting? Again, probably not competitive, but at least some training. How does that work?

Drift Indy has events at Kilkare in Xenia. I'm not sure how exactly it works, but I think they have regular drift days, and competitions. No Star Bash is coming up Sept 17-19 I think. That'll be a fun event to go watch.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

That's the vision that NASA sells, and one that is, imo, outdated.

The average car enthusiast nowadays can't afford to W2W, myself included.

Oh yeah enthusiasts can stop anywhere in that spectrum. I think most stop at time trials or HPDE.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by mike_b

At some point you will realize you are "chasing the sun" and literally trading your life and your financial future to LARP as a "race car driver".

While you are not wrong, I dont think thats the vision to have. Some people use their money and time traveling, some people use their money and time partying up, some people like to save to retire early, some people use their money and time trying to acquire more money. But, one thing you cannot buy with money is time. Your time here is limited, what you do with it, is very important. So while "it makes sense" to save and try to be financially stable or independent at an early age, remember you cannot buy the time back, and the longer you wait to start a hobby, the harder it becomes to do so. Learning becomes harder the older we get. This is just a hobby like many others, a very expensive one, but just that. If you want to get into it, do so while you can. Learning to drive a car around a circuit at 50-60 years old is not the same thing by a mile to doing it while you are 20. Those are my thoughts on the matter.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

That's the vision that NASA sells, and one that is, imo, outdated.

The average car enthusiast nowadays can't afford to W2W, myself included.

Have you checked out GLTC? It's Gridlife's W2W series. While competing for the weekend podium does take some time and money, there are tons of people that are able to race on a budget. Contrary to the "spec" type series, its a simple power/weight ratio field. The last race was Mid-Ohio, and there was an S2000, K-swapped EG hatch, 8th gen civic, Porsche Cayman, and C4 Corvette all battling for the lead of the races throughout the weekend. It's a riot to watch.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by mike_b

Unless you are completely financially independent or getting paid to drive for a living this hobby doesn't lead anywhere good and you really need to impose your own constraints on it. At some point you will realize you are "chasing the sun" and literally trading your life and your financial future to LARP as a "race car driver".

We are all "trading our life" for something. I'm not self employed nor have I won the lottery - so for most of us working jobs, we are "trading our lives" to make someone who doesn't need more money wealthier. Trading my life to play with my race car, even if I'm "LARP'ing" is a vastly more rewarding and fulfilling trade. I have several other hobbies too, many I could stop doing without missing them too much, but racing isn't one of them.

I would rather trade my life pursuing and enjoying something I couldn't imagine living without than trading it for something I could.

I think the "chasing the sun" folks are the people who don't stop modding. Like, "Bro, why do you need 1200WHP in your Integra!!, you still live with your mom!" But the counter argument is that this irresponsible pursuit is not at all unique to motorsports or cars - it's typical human behavior and applies to whatever addiction someone has that takes them down destructive path and I think it's counter productive to suggest that motorsports or cars is inherently a driver of destructive habits.

Originally Posted by mike_b

Edit: And before somebody comes in and says "you can have fun without wrecking your life" I will just say that I agree it is possible, but frequently does not happen that way. If you do it long enough you will know guys that total a car that they still have payments on. Or roll a car and nearly die. Or wreck their car, get divorced, go bankrupt and never are heard from again. I'm not saying that this shit 100% happens to everybody, but it is pretty common if you stick around the scene for a while. You don't want to be one of these guys pulling your wadded up car out to the main road so you can call your insurance company and tell them some story about how you "swerved to miss a deer". Everybody thinks they will know when to call it quits, but when you have 50k or more into a 25k car and the engine pops it will be VERY hard to stop yourself from continuing down that road. After all, you're already in this deep, what's another 5 or 10k to get back up and running?

I personally stopped instructing because people who have little to no driving skill are showing up with 400+HP cars. Not enough novices are showing up with 100-150hp cars to learn. The combination of too much power at a high entry cost with too little talent does wreck some cars.

You posit that this is common and inevitable but it is neither. It is, thankfully, uncommon and readily avoidable but I agree that still happens more than it should.

I've been W2W racing for 17 years so specific to that pursuit, most people that churn out of the sport just lose interest. It looked fun, they tried it, then they moved on.

It's expensive and they come to the realization that the cost to play in that sandbox exceeded their willingness to commit financially to that, or to so for longer than a few years - but the VAST majority that stop racing don't do so because they let it bankrupt them or ruin their marriage. It's addictive so some morons do let it ruin their life first before giving it up - but that's a small minority. The people who keep doing it are the truly passionate "I can't imagine doing anything else" type of crowd who have also learned how do it sustainably. I have heard some old guys say "My first 3 wives didn't like the race cars" - but really that's not a problem with racing - that's a problem with his choice in women.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Have you checked out GLTC? It's Gridlife's W2W series. While competing for the weekend podium does take some time and money, there are tons of people that are able to race on a budget. Contrary to the "spec" type series, its a simple power/weight ratio field. The last race was Mid-Ohio, and there was an S2000, K-swapped EG hatch, 8th gen civic, Porsche Cayman, and C4 Corvette all battling for the lead of the races throughout the weekend. It's a riot to watch.

There's also a V8 swapped 86.

It's not all that low if a budget though. Racing anything a relatively open rule 12.5:1 Power to weight ratio is pretty expensive both from entry to operational. If the guy with the V8 86 is on this board I'd like to compare what he spends to race in GLTC vs what I spend to race in T4. I'd be very interested to know how far apart we are (partly because I find GLTC very appealing).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Have you checked out GLTC? It's Gridlife's W2W series. While competing for the weekend podium does take some time and money, there are tons of people that are able to race on a budget. Contrary to the "spec" type series, its a simple power/weight ratio field. The last race was Mid-Ohio, and there was an S2000, K-swapped EG hatch, 8th gen civic, Porsche Cayman, and C4 Corvette all battling for the lead of the races throughout the weekend. It's a riot to watch.

Why bother racing if you're not racing to win? The cost of building, maintaining, and operating a frontrunner car is more than the average american salary.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

There's also a V8 swapped 86.

It's not all that low if a budget though. Racing anything a relatively open rule 12.5:1 Power to weight ratio is pretty expensive both from entry to operational. If the guy with the V8 86 is on this board I'd like to compare what he spends to race in GLTC vs what I spend to race in T4. I'd be very interested to know how far apart we are (partly because I find GLTC very appealing).

That’s true and would be an interesting data point. The guys on the podium definitely put a lot of money in to it, but I have a co-worker who bought an ex-ITA spec Miata that he competes in. He’s usually in the back half of the field, but having a blast and only into the car for as much as a used twin.

There’s more discussion about sponsors and stuff too, but that’s a slippery slope.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

There's also a V8 swapped 86.

It's not all that low if a budget though. Racing anything a relatively open rule 12.5:1 Power to weight ratio is pretty expensive both from entry to operational. If the guy with the V8 86 is on this board I'd like to compare what he spends to race in GLTC vs what I spend to race in T4. I'd be very interested to know how far apart we are (partly because I find GLTC very appealing).

I don't think he's on here, but just based on probably needing fresh R7's for the 8-10 weekends/yr to be in the front of the pack in that series with how competitive it has gotten plus travel distance (their events are all FAR from TX, closest is 3hrs (COTA) and the next from that is 8hrs of travel) and then maintaining a heavily modified race car that breaks things easily... I wouldn't be surprised if a 30-50k budget in a year gets eaten up really fast 10k of that alone could easily be tires. Even if you sleep in a tent or in an enclosed trailer...

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Why bother racing if you're not racing to win? The cost of building, maintaining, and operating a frontrunner car is more than the average american salary.

Spot on, in my opinion. That (and my general lack of competitiveness) is a big reason I don't think I'll find competitive racing (even TT) appealing - although it might be a blast, to actually win would require both a large investment in money and time and tuning your car to the particular race (be it class restrictions, track-specific setups, etc.).
If I'm not winning, might as well focus solely on having fun, and then a lot of the commitment and worries would go away.

Of course, a more competitive person might find it enjoyable even if they don't win or run mid or even back of the pack. More power to them. It's a very subjective decision.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

Spot on, in my opinion. That (and my general lack of competitiveness) is a big reason I don't think I'll find competitive racing (even TT) appealing - although it might be a blast, to actually win would require both a large investment in money and time and tuning your car to the particular race (be it class restrictions, track-specific setups, etc.).
If I'm not winning, might as well focus solely on having fun, and then a lot of the commitment and worries would go away.

Of course, a more competitive person might find it enjoyable even if they don't win or run mid or even back of the pack. More power to them. It's a very subjective decision.

TT and/or 86CUP generally has zero additional cost associated in addition to a normal track day, unlike racing. Even if you're not competitive or not intending to compete, it's a good benchmark to track your own progress.

I don't ever build my cars "to class". I just compete in whatever class my car happens to fall into.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

TT and/or 86CUP generally has zero additional cost associated in addition to a normal track day, unlike racing. Even if you're not competitive or not intending to compete, it's a good benchmark to track your own progress.

I don't ever build my cars "to class". I just compete in whatever class my car happens to fall into.

That is what I enjoy about TT. It is like a normal track day with a bit of competitiveness added. You end up talking with guys in your class or that have similar cars and you can pick things up and have a more solid benchmark to compare to.

I would love to W2W, I just don't have the budget

[Icecreamtruk]

Yeah I also like the "relaxed" approach of TT. But to counter a bit the point of why compete if you arent in it to win it. Simple, you like wheel to wheel action. You enjoy the thrill, whether it is for 1st place, or just to get in front of that miata in 20th place. If you enjoy battling other drivers for position, the only option is w2w, and like many have said, not everyone have the budget to win it, but most should have a budget to go have some kind of fun.

On the GLTC point, I think a "budget" series (which is supposedly what GLTC aims for), allowing Hoosiers is a very slippery slope. Just by having a new set for each race start and qualifying you have already a huge edge (we are also just bypassing how a simple weight/power ratio can be exploided by lighter cars and aerodynamics, which is dumb).

Cheap or at least affordable race series should be about control tire, heavily regulated aero and suspension and constant ballast adjustments over time to even out the different chassis (which all have different potential beyond a simple power to weight).

Getting side tracked here, but yeah, its all about having fun and yes, its all very expensive lol