SCCA Proposes to Ban E-85 in Street Touring Classes

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Sccabrz192

Basically, yes, you get crap for gas mileage but you can make more power, significantly more on forced induction vehicles.

For example we ran 100 octane leaded mix in the GXP and were about 75 ft lbs down to other ASP Kappas who were running E85. Unfortunately, the Kappa High Pressure fuel system is inadequate at the top of the RPM range, so the engine starts breaking up around 6500 RPMs, part of the reason we never switched over ourselves. The HP fuel pump in those cars is cam driven by 3 lobes on the cam, you really need a 4th lobe to increase the flow enough... but since cam modifications are currently illegal in SP, nothing you can do from that front. It is SP legal to makeshift a port injection system to supplement the High Pressure DI system (similar to D4S), buuuut that is significantly more complicated.

sounds like there is an X factor that will cost its user more money should they use it and only some people are able to take advantage of it.

being on the rules committee myself i can tell you this would be more than enough grounds to simply ban its use.

anything that disturbs the equalization of cars and forces users to spend more money hurts the sport in the long run. The goal is to figure out who the best driver is.

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by UncleFester

I support the thoughts on injector sizing and that if E85 is banned so should race gas. Seems E85 is targeted because it is easy to detect and perhaps some vehicles don't get as much advantage by using it. The availability of E85 should not be part of the argument.

Letter submitted.

I have a hard time agreeing with this argument.

1) 100 Octane unleaded gas, though sparse, is not as geographically dependent as E85. It still qualifies as "pump gas" and therefore, meets all other regulations for fuel. This gives a big advantage to those that have access to E85 geographically.

2) If you cannot detect something, how can you create a rule against it? E85 is easily testable for ethanol content on site... what is the SCCA going to do? come out to events with a test rig to check the flashpoint of the fuel you are using for it's octane rating? send it in to a lab? It just doesn't seem feasible because it cannot be policed as easily.

I think the end goal they are getting at is, if E85 remains, they WILL have to reclass ST AGAIN because of the differing performance potential of those that can, and those that cannot utilize it. This is what is trying to be prevented.

I'll be honest, I'm probably not going to write a letter because I don't think I'll ever run ST again so this isn't my race, but for those that weigh in, I think you at least need to understand the whole story. Banning "race gas" and E85 just seems like a knee-jerk reaction and brings about a lot more complexities.

[rice_classic]

I support the ban on E85. I know where to buy race gas in every state I've lived in/visited but not E85. So I agree with @Sccabrz192.

Ban makes sense to me.


edit: I wish the states would ban E85 as I'm not a fan of corn juice as fuel as a whole.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

edit: I wish the states would ban E85 as I'm not a fan of corn juice as fuel as a whole.

why not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

[Sccabrz192]

Brazil utilizes ethanol from Sugar Cane, not Corn, Sugar Cane is SIGNIFICANTLY more energy dense than corn. I think maybe "ban" wasn't the right way to put it, but we definitely should stop subsidizing corn ethanol. But that is a different conversation entirely.

With all I've said on the matter... I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure whether I would be for or against removing E85 from the class from a competitor standpoint. I certainly see the reasoning behind the this proposal. I live in an area where E-85 is in fairly high supply, and I drive a car which could have more benefit in running it than most other Naturally Aspirated cars. I'm still wondering which competitive OE Flex Fuel cars are out there in ST... are there any?? A quick recollection makes me lean towards no, so I think it would make a more neutral playing field to eliminate the parody...

[Midtenn]

The SCCA has generally had a stance that anything that is "pump gas" is legal. I do think its a little silly to ban E85 without considering you could still get 100-104 octane and is considered "pump gas". Sometime I wish the SCCA was more clear when they state that one car is getting an advantage over another.

[xwd]

I wasn't aware earlier but apparently there is no gas above 100 octane which is legal for federal highway use, but a couple brands have 100 octane which is. I only knew of one 100 octane pump in my whole metro area and I'm not sure if it's even functional anymore or not. E85 isn't really all that popular here either but I know of at least 5 stations that carry it.

There are no flexfuel vehicles which are currently competitive in any autocross class, best I can tell from looking at a recent list of flexfuel vehicles.

[Tirewarmer]

Originally Posted by Sccabrz192

I cannot STAND statements like this... really... you are going to stop showing up to events because your class can't run E85?

I just don't understand why people get soooo bent out of shape because rule sets get tweaked in an attempt to improve the competitive balance and to try to preserve the intention of the class.

You can certainly have an opinion on whether a change does or does not meet the objectives, but for god sake, don't sensationalize it like that, it's a grotesque overstatement to try and get your way. Provide a valid reason it should stay a part of the class regulations or stop crying about it.
"Keep it in there or I'm taking my toys and going home" is not a valid reason.

You aren't the same guy that made arguments about Solstice classing in Street Prepared based partially on there not being an off the shelf diff available, are you? Please say no.

And I understand the ST rules, and their history and intention very, very well. I can give Vince Bly a call and ask him what he thinks about E-85 if you'd like.

Legal pump fuels should be allowed in Street Touring plain and simple. Cars should be classed based on their full built competitiveness based on the current rule set. E-85 is allowed in the current rule set that was in use when the car was classed. I won't call this a take back, but its about as close as you can get. If some Street Touring cars can obtain a gain from running E-85, why don't we let them and class appropriately? That would allow enthusiasts to utilize E-85 on the street also.

And do we really want to open the door to fuel testing at autocrosses? What if your local gas station fills up a tank that had residual E-85 in it with E-10 and you are technically illegal since you now have E-11 in your car, what about another change in the rules when E-15 possibly becomes the norm? http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/a.../e15/index.htm

Competitive balance shouldn't be legislated via extra rules complexity. This is exactly what I see happening here. Legal pump fuels should all be legal in all SOLO classes, and cars should be classed based on their full build competitiveness.

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by Tirewarmer

You aren't the same guy that made arguments about Solstice classing in Street Prepared based partially on there not being an off the shelf diff available, are you? Please say no.

And I understand the ST rules, and their history and intention very, very well. I can give Vince Bly a call and ask him what he thinks about E-85 if you'd like.

Legal pump fuels should be allowed in Street Touring plain and simple. Cars should be classed based on their full built competitiveness based on the current rule set. E-85 is allowed in the current rule set that was in use when the car was classed. I won't call this a take back, but its about as close as you can get. If some Street Touring cars can obtain a gain from running E-85, why don't we let them and class appropriately? That would allow enthusiasts to utilize E-85 on the street also.

And do we really want to open the door to fuel testing at autocrosses? What if your local gas station fills up a tank that had residual E-85 in it with E-10 and you are technically illegal since you now have E-11 in your car, what about another change in the rules when E-15 possibly becomes the norm? http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/a.../e15/index.htm

Competitive balance shouldn't be legislated via extra rules complexity. This is exactly what I see happening here. Legal pump fuels should all be legal in all SOLO classes, and cars should be classed based on their full build competitiveness.

No that wasn't me, my only gripe about ASP classing is AWD/RWD and how the RWD cars are at a distinct disadvantage in Pro Solo format and adverse weather... but that gripe is more of an across-the-board complaint where 2wd/awd cars are interspersed. in the dry, at a national course, no issue.


I don't have any objection to your stance on the matter, I just didn't agree with the argument I'm not going to participate if I can't use E85... it doesn't provide any legitimate input. What you listed above makes a lot of sense, I agree, pump gas is pump gas, E85 is provided, it certainly qualifies. However its geographic nature does put some at a natural disadvantage... and ST isnt a class looking for "best of the best" that is what SP is. ST is supposed to be the "inbetween" class for people who want to modify their cars, but want to be competitive with more emphasis on budget minded individuals... this is the result of trying to walk that line, there will always be talks of unpopular rule changes or clarifications to meet those goals... I remember earlier this decade when I ran STX the discussion was all about cats and emissions legality and boost control... seems like the natural progression of things.


As I stated before:

"With all I've said on the matter... I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure whether I would be for or against removing E85 from the class from a competitor standpoint. I certainly see the reasoning behind the this proposal... I'm still wondering which competitive OE Flex Fuel cars are out there in ST... are there any?? A quick recollection makes me lean towards no, so I think it would make a more neutral playing field to eliminate the parody..."

"I think the end goal they are getting at is, if E85 remains, they WILL have to reclass ST AGAIN because of the differing performance potential of those that can, and those that cannot utilize it. This is what is trying to be prevented."

[RazorHawk]

My Suggestion? Add a rule that only fuels commercially available within xx miles of the track are allowable. Could be 5 miles, could be 50, what ever. That would make things accessable, and could be published beforehand what the rule at a particular race is, and I think that would be most in keeping with th spirit of the rules. You could drive out between runs and fill up and come back to the track. That way, if 100 octane, e-85, etc is available locally to everyone, everyone can run it. If it is not, you cant, because it would favor trailer queens.

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by RazorHawk

My Suggestion? Add a rule that only fuels commercially available within xx miles of the track are allowable. Could be 5 miles, could be 50, what ever. That would make things accessable, and could be published beforehand what the rule at a particular race is, and I think that would be most in keeping with th spirit of the rules. You could drive out between runs and fill up and come back to the track. That way, if 100 octane, e-85, etc is available locally to everyone, everyone can run it. If it is not, you cant, because it would favor trailer queens.

Most people who trailer vehicles fill up with the fuel they need before they leave home and many people (not just the trailered cars) don't put enough miles on their competition vehicles to cycle through fuel enough for that to be possible.

Plus you would have to have different tunes for every place you plan to compete based on what is available... that can be a huge cost burden... and that still doesn't address the issue of testing fuel on site, it probably makes it even worse.

[whataboutbob]

Interesting discussion, please proceed. :happy0180:

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted by Sccabrz192

I have a hard time agreeing with this argument.

1) 100 Octane unleaded gas, though sparse, is not as geographically dependent as E85. It still qualifies as "pump gas" and therefore, meets all other regulations for fuel. This gives a big advantage to those that have access to E85 geographically.

I agree in principle, but I'm not sure the availability is as you say in practice. Here in corn country E85 is available pretty much everywhere and is of course highway legal. There are many fewer places to get 100 Octane unleaded, and not one of them is highway legal to my knowledge. So the question becomes, what qualifies as "pump gas" from an SCCA perspective? Does it have to be on-highway fuel, or can it simply be unleaded fuel which can be used in an unmodified street car?

In other words, my limited information indicates availability of on-highway 100 Oct is just as geographically dependent as E85.

FYI Using off-highway fuel in Minnesota in your street car will get you a $1,000 fine. Enforcement is an understandably low priority, but there are wive's tales of highway patrol watching the 100 Oct pumps near BIR.

Edit: On the flex-fuel question, I'm pretty sure the new Ford 1.6l Ecoboost is Flex-fuel. Not that it's in a competitive car yet, but it may come in the Fiesta ST. I'll bet you get 20-30 hp on E85. The 2.0l version in the Fusion and Focus ST may be flex fuel as well.

I have no dog in this fight, and don't really have an opinion of what the SCCA should do. The fuel problem is a pickle, no doubt.

[Sccabrz192]

For comparison...

http://www.racegas.com/fuelfinder ...I don't get the numbers listed in the blobs on this one.... when you zoom on the map there are clearly more locations than the number, but w/e.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/locator/s...radius_miles=5

And the only reason there are so many E85 pumps is because it was subsidized, and I'm sure gas stations (this part is speculation) received some incentive for putting in E85 pumps, and as that winds down, and no one buys the stuff for their cars (the crap is now more expensive in MI than unleaded midgrade lol) the pumps with E85 will drop rapidly.

But regardless, in truth, aside from the east coast where race gas is more abundant than E85... everywhere else looks pretty damn near equal. But lets face it... if you aren't on the easy coast or California, does anyone really care about us?