Why did I wait so long to try the pedal dance

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by steverife

I mean, I CAN get ICE mode with the long press. But it generally isn't something that happens unless I screw up.

My understanding with the pedal dance is that ICE mode happens with a much greater frequency, at least in an autocross setting.

AutoX'ers tend to stab at the brake pedal. Exactly what the ABS is looking for to detect a panic brake.

In fact, the AutoX'er may be panic braking, rather than progressively.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Not new info, it's buried in here somewhere, goes with the turning off of EBD (electronic brakeforce distribution)
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25494

Easiest to feel when braking mid corner, which you shouldn't be doing but with pedal dance the car senses the light front wheel and reduces braking pressure around the grip of the light front wheel meaning you're basically not braking at all. The single channel mode I mean is that it acts like ABS from the '80s where it reacts to the wheel that's locking and reduces brake pressure across the system to get grip back to that wheel.
Without pedal dance it's computing wheel speeds at all four corners and eases up on the brake pressure on the light front wheel while still allowing the other 2-3 loaded wheels to slow the car down, real useful when you fuck up and want to pull your line in tighter.



I have only experienced it with the pedal dance and an extremely aggressive brake application. If you're gentle in getting on the brakes or I should say, not a fucking idiot jamming on the brakes like I was it will almost never happen. You're basically shocking the tires and the dumb pedal dance mode can't tell the difference between that and ice, the regular ABS/EBD can. This is in autox, not on the street, I'm not dumb enough to think I can outbrake the computer.

/imho

In an AutoX setting, I would not pedal dance, since any competitive AutoX'er wont be trail braking, and wants to maximize deceleration performance (aka use EBD).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by steverife

Absolutely. Mitigating ice mode (or brake lockup in non-ABS cars) is a pretty integral part of the autocross skillset.

...and I think that is why the bulk of "serious" autocrossers in twins don't seem to mess with the pedal dance.

See above post!

AutoX'ers should never be pedal dancing, to maximize their performance.

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Can't believe anyone is driving these cars with the nannies still on. These are such excellent, communicative, and easy to control vehicles.

Yes but as a driver I am still learning. Also new tracks that could be bit scary

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

Yes but as a driver I am still learning. Also new tracks that could be bit scary

That's why you want the car to be as predictable as possible, aka pedal danced!

[Ultramaroon]

[jflogerzi]

Just a quick update: Ran it at Sonoma with 200TW tires and will not go back. Always pedal dance! All the time

EDIT** First time at this track ever and there are some spots you can get in trouble

[dalte2]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

In an AutoX setting, I would not pedal dance, since any competitive AutoX'er wont be trail braking, and wants to maximize deceleration performance (aka use EBD).

An Autox'er that isn't trail braking is very unlikely to win. Lets say there is a big declining radius sweeper (seems like nearly every course has one), you absolutly have to trail brake into that. Without trail braking, your choices are 1) lose speed before the turn-in and coast through the sweeper, or; 2) scrub speed with understeer. However, either is MUCH slower than trail braking which shifts weight to the front while keeping your front tires in a much better slip angle for peak traction then being in understeer and you can carry much more speed into the sweeper than coasting. Is trail braking hard, yes, it takes hundred of practice attempts to figure out how to do it reasonably well, but without trail braking, you are not maximizing the potential of your tires.

You can use trail braking in other elements but the declining radius sweeper is the most important element to use it.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by dalte2

An Autox'er that isn't trail braking is very unlikely to win. Lets say there is a big declining radius sweeper (seems like nearly every course has one), you absolutly have to trail brake into that. Without trail braking, your choices are 1) lose speed before the turn-in and coast through the sweeper, or; 2) scrub speed with understeer. However, either is MUCH slower than trail braking which shifts weight to the front while keeping your front tires in a much better slip angle for peak traction that being in understeer and you can carry much more speed into the sweeper than coasting. Is trail braking hard, yes, it takes hundred of practice attempts to figure out how to do it reasonably well, but without trail braking, you are not maximizing the potential of your tires.

You can use trail braking in other elements but the declining radius sweeper is the most important element to use it.

Are you truly trail braking or mostly engine braking while resting your foot on the brake pedal, in that scenario with this platform?

Can you show me a datalog from an AutoX where the trail brake application is increasing the ability to turn laterally, without getting into EBD?

Keep in mind, this is 1st gen specific, not 2nd gen.

[dalte2]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Are you truly trail braking or mostly engine braking while resting your foot on the brake pedal, in that scenario with this platform?

Can you show me a datalog from an AutoX where the trail brake application is increasing the ability to turn laterally, without getting into EBD?

Keep in mind, this is 1st gen specific, not 2nd gen.

Yes, I am truly trail braking. No, I am not just resting my foot on the brake, though, depending on the corner, at times that can certainly be the case on a particularly long sweeper. But a sweeper isn't the only place to use it. That was just the example that was easiest to illustrate.

The point is, trail braking is not easy, but to be at the top of the AX game, you have to do it. It isn't optional. After practicing hundreds of times I'm still not good at it, but it is very helpful. I'm just trying to dispel the myth that trail braking isn't a skill that an AX driver needs to learn. In my view, it is the hardest skill to be learned and therefore probably the last skill a driver should integrate.

I run 2nd generation but 2nd gen also has EBD so what is the relevancy of that question? All of the top AX drivers in my region trail brake, no matter the car. And, nearly all have ABS (except the trailered Miata race car) and therefore most have some form of EBD. Let me think of the top cars at my local AX, GT4, Tesla 3 performance, GTI, BRZ, Miata, Z06, SS 1LE's, etc. If they are top 10 at my local AX (of 145), they trail brake. To make it into that elite group, you have to trail brake to save the some tenths to be at the top of the leader list.

If you are able to place in the Nats without trail braking, then my hat is off to you. My understanding is top drivers trail brake and it has certainly helped my times. And, I work every event to get better at it to drop more time.

If there is some issue with 1st gen and a quirk in their EBD that prohibits trail braking then I'm speaking from ignorance as I have no 1st gen experience. I read your post to suggest that trail braking in AX (in general) was not necessarly and that is what I am attempting to clarify for readers of this forum.

[dalte2]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Are you truly trail braking or mostly engine braking while resting your foot on the brake pedal, in that scenario with this platform?

Can you show me a datalog from an AutoX where the trail brake application is increasing the ability to turn laterally, without getting into EBD?

Keep in mind, this is 1st gen specific, not 2nd gen.

Your profile says you drive an S2000. Surely, you trail brake that platform?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by dalte2

Yes, I am truly trail braking. No, I am not just resting my foot on the brake, though, depending on the corner, at times that can certainly be the case on a particularly long sweeper. But a sweeper isn't the only place to use it. That was just the example that was easiest to illustrate.

The point is, trail braking is not easy, but to be at the top of the AX game, you have to do it. It isn't optional. After practicing hundreds of times I'm still not good at it, but it is very helpful. I'm just trying to dispel the myth that trail braking isn't a skill that an AX driver needs to learn. In my view, it is the hardest skill to be learned and therefore probably the last skill a driver should integrate.

I run 2nd generation but 2nd gen also has EBD so what is the relevancy of that question? All of the top AX drivers in my region trail brake, no matter the car. And, nearly all have ABS (except the trailered Miata race car) and therefore most have some form of EBD. Let me think of the top cars at my local AX, GT4, Tesla 3 performance, GTI, BRZ, Miata, Z06, SS 1LE's, etc. If they are top 10 at my local AX (of 145), they trail brake. To make it into that elite group, you have to trail brake to save the some tenths to be at the top of the leader list.

If you are able to place in the Nats without trail braking, then my hat is off to you. My understanding is top drivers trail brake and it has certainly helped my times. And, I work every event to get better at it to drop more time.

If there is some issue with 1st gen and a quirk in their EBD that prohibits trail braking then I'm speaking from ignorance as I have no 1st gen experience. I read your post to suggest that trail braking in AX (in general) was not necessarly and that is what I am attempting to clarify for readers of this forum.

It is a very platform specific post, for the masses, and should not be taken out of that context. Of course, setup will dictate as much as the platform itself.

High level drivers will develop their own preferences, and will likely do what works for them.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by dalte2

Your profile says you drive an S2000. Surely, you trail brake that platform?

I do whatever is needed to load the vehicle how I need it to, s2000 or anything else.

Do you happen to have any S2k specific or more uncommonly, CR specific experience?

[justint5387]

Come to check some stuff on the forum after a few years. The mighty CSG still knows everything