The U.S. Government is trying to get rid of our racecars!

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by johan

Read the paragraph after the one you quoted. Look up the transcripts between congress and the EPA when the CAA was created and every time it was amended. If you're unwilling to do so and actually speak with authority on the matter, then please - walk away.

Ignoring the facts, ignoring the history and standing your ground when you have none to stand on - yes that makes you both ignorant and disrespectful - and I will call you on it because that sort of attitude, in our current apathetic world, will only make things worse. I find it incredibly offensive and honestly unacceptable on a forum like this where we are supposedly automotive enthusiasts. This change by the EPA is the beginning of the end for our sport and our culture, now is not the time to have our heads in the sand.

Thank God the people who actually matter in this argument are doing something about it. The automobile manufacturers are actually getting their own legal councils involved in fighting the EPA on this issue, so hopefully it will work out ok.

I'm glad you find me ignorant and disrespectful for voicing my own opinion.

I find you ignorant and disrespectful for ASSUMING I am taking this attitude towards what is happening, simply because I'm not waving the red flag as much as you are.

Just because I am not vocal on this issue in this thread, on this forum, does not mean I am not taking an active role in what is happening. Contrary to what you wish to believe, my current career is at stake.

But keep your ignorant and disrespectful views about me to yourself, please.

-alex

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Alex, this piques my interest. Not a setup. What do you think are the right questions? I have mixed feelings on the subject.

Honestly?

Start by recognizing what the Clean Air Act is supposed to do. Then you realize that by virtue of the EPA making assumptions on what they interpret the CAA (and the "mobile emissions" amendments) to be, this will be a long fight that will end up in the courts.

Unless you or I won the Powerball tonight, not many of us will be able to fight this from a legal perspective. Next best thing is to post constructive comments about what this proposed rule change would do.

To keep the "taking racecars away from us" rhetoric going is actually creating a lot of noise and not focused on the subject manner. In an ideal world, we'd flood the EPA with constructive criticism or rebuttals, not just signing a petition on the White House website that frankly only will get us a response from them, nothing else of significance.

If you want to raise hell or just get others involved, share articles and opinions that are rooted in fact. Too many people just assume you can mod whatever you want with no restrictions... when this was never the case to begin with.

I think at the end of the day, pretty much everything I've seen in the past week is 95% noise and 5% actual constructive criticism/suggestions for what should be done differently. This needs to be where we should refocus our energies and voices, making the EPA hear us better.

-alex

[VitViper]

Originally Posted by mav1178

I'm glad you find me ignorant and disrespectful for voicing my own opinion.

I find you ignorant and disrespectful for ASSUMING I am taking this attitude towards what is happening, simply because I'm not waving the red flag as much as you are.

Just because I am not vocal on this issue in this thread, on this forum, does not mean I am not taking an active role in what is happening. Contrary to what you wish to believe, my current career is at stake.

But keep your ignorant and disrespectful views about me to yourself, please.

-alex

The level of denial you are in is actually quite astounding.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by VitViper

The level of denial you are in is actually quite astounding.

Please, tell me what I am in denial of?
I want to see what words are being put into my mouth.

-alex

[KR-S]

Oh, boy... What did I just walk into...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by VitViper

You can build a 1000hp drag EK Civic 4 cylinder with factory emissions equipment and a factory ECU?

You can build and tune a turbo drift car with a 100% stock ECU? Right, with no modifications to the ECU at all, you can just bolt on a turbo and go?

LOL sorry I am not on your level and dont think the only way to have fun is with 1,000 horsepower 22psi motors.

Plenty of drifting got done on stock powertrains and its not like it can't be done today.

As Enzo Ferrari said "aerodynamics is for those that can't build engines"

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Honestly?

Of course. That's why I asked.

Originally Posted by mav1178

To keep the "taking racecars away from us" rhetoric going is actually creating a lot of noise and not focused on the subject manner. In an ideal world, we'd flood the EPA with constructive criticism or rebuttals, not just signing a petition on the White House website that frankly only will get us a response from them, nothing else of significance.

If you want to raise hell or just get others involved, share articles and opinions that are rooted in fact. Too many people just assume you can mod whatever you want with no restrictions... when this was never the case to begin with.

I think at the end of the day, pretty much everything I've seen in the past week is 95% noise and 5% actual constructive criticism/suggestions for what should be done differently. This needs to be where we should refocus our energies and voices, making the EPA hear us better.

-alex

You've pretty much already said this. I was specifically wondering what, as an insider, you think the right questions are.

I'm not a fan of yanking the emissions control devices from anything that is registered for street use but if it's a track rat, seriously? You don't find focus on this area as a bit absurd?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

LOL sorry I am not on your level and dont think the only way to have fun is with 1,000 horsepower 22psi motors.

Plenty of drifting got done on stock powertrains and its not like it can't be done today.

As Enzo Ferrari said "aerodynamics is for those that can't build engines"

So you think it should all just be illegal across the board? I don't get it.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

So you think it should all just be illegal across the board? I don't get it.

I find the assertion that you can't have fun with an emissions compliant vehicle absolutely asinine.

I think that the old interpretation of the law should remain as is: vehicles that are used on public roads must comply with local emissions regulations, vehicles that are used only off public roads are either free to play or follow some restrictions (like dirt bikes and atvs are right now).

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I find the assertion that you can't have fun with an emissions compliant vehicle absolutely asinine.

I think that the old interpretation of the law should remain as is: vehicles that are used on public roads must comply with local emissions regulations, vehicles that are used only off road are either free to play or follow some restrictions (like dirt bikes and atvs are right now).

Again, no one said you can't have fun with an emissions compliant vehicle. Who's asserting that? I run bone stock but I don't cop an attitude about it. If I take the plates off of my DD and trailer it to the track I should be allowed to do whatever the fuck I want to the engine.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Again, no one said you can't have fun with an emissions compliant vehicle. Who's asserting that? I run bone stock but I don't cop an attitude about it. If I take the plates off of my DD and trailer it to the track I should be allowed to do whatever the fuck I want to the engine.

@VitVipers post set me off, I interpreted it as him saying it was the end of tracking because you couldn't modify your vehicle, I find it laughable hence my last two posts in the thread.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=88

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

@VitVipers post set me off, I interpreted it as him saying it was the end of tracking because you couldn't modify your vehicle, I find it laughable hence my last two posts in the thread.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=88

But I think people are talking past each other here. I really do think the EPA intends to clamp down on modification of street vehicles in all cases which I do assert is focusing new regulation efforts in completely the wrong area.

It really IS tragic.

[why?]

it is the EPA, they are not going to be happy until they control absolutely everything. they have screwed up royally time after time lately, have made complete and total fools of themselves, and are still going. They won't be happy until all modifications to cars are illegal.

[VitViper]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

LOL sorry I am not on your level and dont think the only way to have fun is with 1,000 horsepower 22psi motors.

Plenty of drifting got done on stock powertrains and its not like it can't be done today.

As Enzo Ferrari said "aerodynamics is for those that can't build engines"

So what you're saying is it's OK for the EPA to go after modifying street vehicles for track duty as long as it fits in with your narrow view of what is fun for you?

However you missed my one and only pretty blunt point:

With their proposed regulations they can and will go after not only companies cracking and exposing stock ECU's for end-user tuning (as well as injecting "custom maps" type code), but companies making complete stand alone ECU's. The ECU is technically an emissions control device.

Most factory ECU's aren't tuned ("programmed") with track use in mind -- meaning you're missing on a lot of features (look up the capabilities of race oriented ECU's from MoTec, etc). Our platform actually has a "plug and play" MoTeC package available that actually retains all the emissions controls like the stock ECU (even down to the EVAP purge control working), however under the EPA's proposed regulations the ECU swap would be illegal because it's not a "certified configuration".

Some people may enjoy tracking a completely unmodified vehicle... some don't (from my experience, most don't). You're OK with the EPA telling you what you can and can't do (IE, imposing themselves on your freedoms)?