2013 FR-S Budget Swap Help!

[TRS]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I was thinking that too. Motec to run all the OE accessories along with EPS and communicate with TC is approaching half his budget before wire harness.

If you are on budget, why spend thousnds of dollars for expensive free programmable ECUs? Especially if talking about a 400+ build, what for most LS options mean pretty much bone stock. There are two realy great plug and play CAN Integrations for LS swaps out there. I use one of them. Its awesome. ALL functions are there and working like the FA20 is still in there and the car was just handed over by the dealership. The OEM LS harness can be used with very simple mods. The integrator unit only is arround 600bucks if I remember correctly. You can buy it together with a prepared harness for 1400 I believe. But as I said, just use the OEM harness and pin the two or three required connectors on your own. A GM E38 ECU is arround 100-150 bucks if you didnt already get it with a used LS3. Installing the Translator and performing the wiring was surprisingly straight forward. Sure, some questions to answer and some conclusions to be made. But realy no big deal and far from rocket sience as long as you have a basic understanding of car electric.

For programming, buy a Hptuners Mpvi2. You can have it for arround 300bucks to start with including single ECU unlock. For 550 plus 200 for a wideband you are on Pro level. Even FI builds are possible then.

Using an iron block LS engine is pointless. Same thing with JZ engine if you ask me. Both are heavy as f*** and will destroy driveablity. For showof or drift only it might be a great thing. I also understand the JZ fraction since it is a legendary Toyota engine. But for the 86 it is nothing what will handle realy good on a track compared to other options.

Go with a more modern all aluminum LS3. I gained 65kg over the OEM FA20 on my swap. If you build it more weight sensitive than I did, it should be possible to get even less weight added. It also should be noted that only the tranny, which BTW is good for 900Nm (try that with the AZ6 and you will definately not have a Budget build), is somewhat like 15 to 20kg of the added weight.

Driveablity with the LS3 is great of you ask me, but you have to care about trans and axle ratios. A Corvette goes nearly 60mph in first gear. Most LS swaps ignore this fact and later there are complaints that there is no traction. Then someone says "this is because of the Bad weight distribution of this heavy piece of junk in the front" and most people will agree. Meanwhile nobody is recognizing that they are riding on a 1st gear which is redlining at 30-35mph. It is pointless to have such a short 1st on car with this torque to power ratio and RWD. Also a vette would struggle with traction on such a ratio.
Next thing: Tires and suspension. You cannot expect traction with a 400hp build while still sitting on a low buck coilover and a standard sport tire which is 30% smaler than factory tires of the car the LS came in.
Buy a Semi. It has not to be expensive. There are realy affordable tires out there which gives you loads of traction. Put in a good quality coilover with adjustable dampers. Add camber adjusters to both axles and give it a proper alignment.
I have a 245 Semi and 1st redlining at 50mph in my factory powered LS3 swap. Warm tire and dry road and you can give full throttle in 1st without wheelspin.

The other decisive thing is your location. A LS swap in Europe will be much more expensive than in north America. Also the lose of money on sale will be way less in this region.

I cant put a price tag on a LS swap in the US. Especially not with labor. What I can say: My (expensive and definetaly not Budget style) LS swap in Europe Was by far not that expensive that I would be able to build a 1000hp c5 or buy a reasonable C7 for this money, also not if I would have sold my 86.
I did everything myself. And yes, a reasonable used C6 would be the same or less money arround here in Europe and would give compareable performance as a good LS swap. But sorry, the LS 86 looks better, feels better and is much more exotic than a C6.

In north America it should be much easier keep the budget low. Even there I would doubt that a 15k budget will provide a reasonable swap if labour is included. But if you are doing the swap on your own, this should be enough for a good LS swap.

This beeing said, a good and same reliable turbo build with same power output will be the same or even higher price than a LS swap. You have to invest at least same money into the tranny, propshaft, axles, clutch. A reasonable used LS3 is how much in the States? 4-5k?

How much is a forged FA20 shortblock plus a bolt on turbo kit good for 400+hp? I would guess more. And you are still running parts of the system outside the specs they where designed for.

A LS provides the same performance out of the box for many thousnds of miles. The downside is a weight penalty of arround 40-50kg (add a turbo and you also add weight) and no turbo flutter sound. Therefore you can go uphill in 6th gear at 30mph and overtake a truck without touching the shifter.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by TRS

If you are on budget, why spend thousnds of dollars for expensive free programmable ECUs? Especially if talking about a 400+ build, what for most LS options mean pretty much bone stock. There are two realy great plug and play CAN Integrations for LS swaps out there. I use one of them. Its awesome. ALL functions are there and working like the FA20 is still in there and the car was just handed over by the dealership. The OEM LS harness can be used with very simple mods. The integrator unit only is arround 600bucks if I remember correctly. You can buy it together with a prepared harness for 1400 I believe. But as I said, just use the OEM harness and pin the two or three required connectors on your own.

If you have 100% working functionality with a GM ecu and a CAN translator, that would be the first one I have ever heard of. From what I have understood is the TCU won't communicate properly and you can't get a variable signal to the EPS to change the power steering weighing at different speeds, it was either on or off.

[TRS]

From what I expierienced the TCS is working great. It reacts to wheelspin properly in the different 3 modes.

Full on means "nanny mode" and any wheelspin or drift angle is imediately supressed. Even my grandpa would have a hard time in spining the car on a wet road.

In sport mode a pretty good drift angle is allowed. It might be possible that the steering angle is not rated, for sure it behaves different. But I dont see this as a missing function. I like this version of the Sport Mode more than OEM. The factory Sport Mode of the 86 was not usable for my driving style. Therefore when I was going to have a fast drive on the road, I used the full off mode. After the swap, the sport mode is what I expect from such a function. It allows spirited driving, some wheel spin and some drift angle. But still the TCS will cut power once wheelspin is too excessive. Sure, there is a higher chance to spin the car. But if you ask me, this possibility is something the driver needs to be aware of if he selects the sport mode. Also, the aggressiveness of the TCS can be adjusted through the Translator for both modes. So it is possible to adjust it to the tire of your choice, what I did. On a dry road I have to do a good start until the clutch is fully closed. Once this point is reached, I can just push the pedal fully down and the car is accelarating like hell with a mild, constant wheelslip controled on an optimal level. Since the swap, I use sport mode most of the time when I want to have some fun the road, despite I intensinally want to drift. And I also intensionally say "road" and not "track" where I use sport mode. This beeing said, on a good, smooth road beeing dry and having some temperature in the tires and on the road, a TCS is not realy necessary once the start was good and clutch is closed. Enourmous difference in dry grip between Michelin PSS and Federal RS-R. Switching tires lowered the 0-60 time by more than 1s.

Track is a different story and all off still means all off.

So In my book this is a fully functional system...

Only thing I didnt try yet is if pedal dance is still working and has still any effect. I would guess no. To be honest, besides the flickering VCS light I never felt any effect of Pedal dance mode on or off compared to full off mode. Even not OEM and not only on track but also when doing drift sessions.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by TRS

From what I expierienced the TCS is working great. It reacts to wheelspin properly in the different 3 modes. Full on means "nanny mode" and any wheelspin or drift angle is imediately supressed. In sport mode a pretty good drift angle is allowed. It might be possible that the behavior here is different and the angle is not rated, but for sure it behaves different. But I dont see this as a missing function. I like this version of the Sport Mode more than OEM. The factory Sport Mode of the 86 was not usable for for my driving style. Therefore when I was going to have a fast drive, I used the full off mode. After the swap, the Sport Mode is what I expect from such a function. It allows spirited driving, some wheel spin and some drift angle. But still the TCS will cut power once wheelspin is too excessive. Sure, there is a higher chance to spin the car. But if you ask me, this possibility is something the driver needs to be a wäre of if he select the sport mode.

And all off still means all off. So In my book this is a fully functional system...

Very cool, I will have to read up on your DIY thread. I didn't see that before.

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by alex87f

Step 1: sell 86
Step 2: use car money + 15k from project & go on craigslist
Step 3: get a used Vette
Step 4: avoid losing tens of thousands when resale comes

Just my 2c ;-)

Let me add Lotus Elise and Alfa 4C to that list.

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

Let me add Lotus Elise and Alfa 4C to that list.

LS swapped Lotus Elise...

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[TRS]

Hot candidates for the "least helpfull post contest".

Nobody asked if a used Vette (or whatever) is cheaper. If one would like to know, I guess one would check the current price of this car on any random online marketplace.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Riftur

I think this misses the point of what he is trying to do. The car is awesome and as long as the LS motor does not destroy the car's balance/handling, the finished product would be so much better then an old vette. If I had the money, I would do an engine swap. You might be able to save money by buying a used vette for the motor/parts though. FYI, you will never recoup the money you put into it.

People who have not done an engine swap, really don't know what it really takes, specially if you want a car that keeps OEM CANBUS stuff.... Swapping is a pain in the ass, it's expensive if you want things nice. I regretted swapping my car. I've written it in numerous posts, but long story short, the car was way funner turbo FA20 then swapped.... But FA20 turbo was rolling the dice every time...

I actually put the car back to stock, low miles clean stock car sold for a great price and made money off the swap parts...

I do not recommend swapping to anyone EXCEPT its a track ONLY car.

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

Thing is, for the price. You can buy a pretty new vette. I have an LS swapped FRS. It was very very expensive to put together and I'm still shoveling money into it(I'll never be satisfied). With what I've spent I could have easily gotten a C6, if not a C7. Or built a 1000+hp C5. Swapping is hard and financially irresponsible. If you are dedicated to the chassis and never intend to sell it and really want to build something special, then yeah, go for it. If you want a fast car, you're doing it wrong.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

This is sound advice.

[TRS]

@Sportsguy83: Read my posts above. A complete and (nearly) flawlessly working OEM CAN Integration can be done for less then 1000bucks. No guessing, its proofen. I did it that way. Use the link below and watch my YT videos if you dont believe. There are some minor issues with fuel usage readings and I was not able to use the FL cluster in a pre FL car. Besides that nothing what's different from OEM.

I understand your point since you maybe had issues. I expect mainly Electronic and Software issues, as I heard from many owners of LS swaped 86'. But if your specific swap wasnt done well in that point, you cannot generalize your expierience.

Swapping is expensive (as a well done FI build is expensive too), no doubt. Especially if you are forced to trust other U's and cant do it on your own. Many swaps I see out there done by so called professionals are nothing I'd ever like to have and without the slightest doubt nothing I would like to pay money for. But thats another story.

I dont know what exact typ of swap or turbo build you had, but I can say that I had both and I DEFINATELY would NEVER change the 400+ LS3 hp against 400+ Turbo hp.

As well, I dont agree that a swap is to be considered for track only. Even if the handling of mainly road driven LS3 swap 86 is not effected negatively in a considerable manor, this weight penalty is exactly what NOBODY want to have in a race car. So especially for racing I would not recommend to swap. Take the money to fully build the FA20 and expect regulary full maintenance. If you dont have the money for that, then stay close to stock and live with FA20 as it is.

I would recommend LS3 swap for road use cars, since a LS3 swap, if well engineered and built, is the way easier option to get reliable and longlasting 400+ hp than a turbo.

As well, I would never take a turbo build in this power region for a 3000mile holiday trip accross 3 different countrys and beat it over the hill roads arround the holiday location. Especially with a build which had only something arround 300miles of test before.

The LS swap passed this test without any serious issues. And the reason why I even tried to do this was, that there is a mostly factory engine and drivetrain and a working software and electrical system. And it seems that I was right.

BTW, I did the LS3 swap on my own. But I did it in Europe where most necessary parts are arround 20-30% more expensive then in the US. I developed a own mounting kit including A/C Adapters and engine dressup. I manufactured many of the custom parts 3-4 times until I had the final version which satisfied my expectations. I traded of the no longer needed parts of the 86 and the parts of the spender car. Overall Im under 20k€. And thats for the 1st car buildt. Any further car could be way less if the engine is taken from a reasonable spender car and its done as a DIY.

A FI build with same power and level of relaiablity and longlifety would be not less. I did turbo builds before, with development and as well as build to print. Both would be in the same range as LS3 swap if done on the same level.

Nobody (or at least way less people) come in and answer the question "how to make a FI build" with phrases like "dont think about it, sell the car and get something else". Realy, a FI swap is EXACTLY as financialy unresponsible or not as a LS swap. There is not one financialy responsible reason to modify cars. If you want to safe money, buy cars at the dealer, dont touch anything, just drive. And when you are done, sell it and forget.

Again, it was never the question if swaping is financialy responsible or if a used random sports car with compareable performance is cheaper. As well I think nobody is helped with another pro or con engine swap thread. The question was how to swap on budget. Nearly no post in this thread is answering this question, including yours. As long as the discussion isnt about the Initial topic Im out now.

[Phantom_9192]

Similar question here:
I have an 86 with Motec 150. I'd like to swap to another Toyota/Subie motor (for class reasons) and be able to get her to mid-300's in power. What's the best option? (FI FA20 isn't reliable enough for our use case)

Thoughts? TIA!

[Jdmjunkie]

Originally Posted by Phantom_9192

Similar question here:
I have an 86 with Motec 150. I'd like to swap to another Toyota/Subie motor (for class reasons) and be able to get her to mid-300's in power. What's the best option? (FI FA20 isn't reliable enough for our use case)

Thoughts? TIA!

3Sgte?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Phantom_9192

Similar question here:
I have an 86 with Motec 150. I'd like to swap to another Toyota/Subie motor (for class reasons) and be able to get her to mid-300's in power. What's the best option? (FI FA20 isn't reliable enough for our use case)

Thoughts? TIA!

Beams with a turbo, 3SGTE, 2JZGE with a turbo, 2JZGTE, 1JZGTE, EJ25, 1-3UZ…

What is the best? JZ family has the most reliability and support.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Phantom_9192

Similar question here:
I have an 86 with Motec 150. I'd like to swap to another Toyota/Subie motor (for class reasons) and be able to get her to mid-300's in power. What's the best option? (FI FA20 isn't reliable enough for our use case)

Thoughts? TIA!

2GR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by Riftur

So you regret the LS swap? Did it change the way the car handles?

Im not him but I recently just did a swap on my race car (trailer to the track and back, no street whatsoever). And while the car is faster, it is not at all the same animal. Corner speeds are down considerably.

If you are talking about a street car, you'll never be going fast enough on it to feel any kind of difference.