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Old 09-13-2021, 02:15 PM   #925
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Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
I am sure you are already aware of the foolishness of most of what you said

I am sure you already know death rates by age, and by weight, and by comorbidities.

"healthy" food is not more expensive then "shit" food. Just factually inaccurate.

"magically collectively?" I already stated numerous times, everything you are trying to implement to make the vaccine mandatory do the same for obesity and smoking.
I really don't think it's foolish at all. Wish I could spend more time during the day to dig into it. I struggle to even comprehend, especially after all this time, the ongoing resistance to vaccination. THAT is what I find utterly foolish.
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:21 PM   #926
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:21 PM   #927
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Aww you forgot the dollar sign and to make a clear statement.

So COVID has cost the US trillions. The cheapest and fastest solution will be the vaccine. It prevents 99% of COVID deaths and hospitalizations.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...e-16-trillion/
Those pesky dollar signs for clarity.

Curious source for the cost US trillions? How much of that is self imposed IE lock downs, crippling supply chain, and shutting down small businesses? Vs direct medical related costs?
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:23 PM   #928
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:29 PM   #929
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Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
from cdc

Smoking-related illness in the United States costs more than $300 billion each year, including
More than $225 billion for direct medical care for adults
More than $156 billion in lost productivity, including $5.6 billion in lost productivity due to secondhand smoke exposure

To prevent smoking, the US government has mandated no public smoking. It has mandated an increase in taxes on cigarettes. It hasn't done prohibition because it learned with alcohol that prohibition isn't effective. If a smoking mandate/prohibition was effective then I would be for a smoking mandate, not because I think a person shouldn't be able to smoke (I am more libertarian in that regard), but because I think children are targeted, so smoking isn't just a choice that adults make.

Mandating vaccines has been effective in the past, so it is different.
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:33 PM   #930
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Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post

Weight loss is an entirely mental endeavor. Not saying it is easy but anyone can do it.
If what you are saying is true, that you have gained mastery over controlling your weight but intentionally became almost morbidly obese, you are not a very smart guy. Not that this comes as any surprise based on your previous statements.

You know, a few years ago I had the privilege to meet a gentleman who was 105 years old. He was a resident at the senior home where my father resided and I would see him sitting on a couch in the common area or walking around unassisted, with a young lady at his side. Most Sundays I went to see my dad and often Uncle Moe as they called him, would be on the adjacent couch listening in or adding to our conversation.

It made me wonder if there really was a secret formula to living so long and still having a quality of life. I did a fair bit of reading and looking for answers. I read many anecdotal stories of people in Okinawa, Italy, and the countries that have the most centenarians.
Genetics is something we have little control of but of course that is a factor to longevity.

But there was only one thing all the many people surveyed in various studies had in common.

NONE of these people had ever been what is classified as obese, in their entire lifetimes. NONE.
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:34 PM   #931
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Your points are very well made, but very badly placed. The thread is not about all causes of unnecessary morbidity. It is about Covid. If your goal is to hi-jack the thread, you are apparently succeeding. Why not start a new thread on generalized unnecessary morbidity? Then we’ll have a place to talk about obesity, weight loss, dental hygiene, and … gun control.
They directly relate to/contribute to covid morbidity and general outlook, in addition to having a myriad of other non covid impacts to medical system (even if “planned”) and number of deaths etc… finding a solution to those would help improve outlook of covid while also having numerous other benefits collectively potentially far greater than even a cure let alone vaccine to covid.

What is the real point to these covid related threads?

90% of the posts are regurgitated or just agreeing with the same general sentiment of “get vaccinated” could have ended after pg 1.

But a request was made at some point for suggested alternative solutions. Since a few people where arguing and shutting down the same basic solutions of getting vaccinated or at least mandating/enforcing it without an alternative solution between get vaccinated or don’t get vaccinated.

So I presented some alternatives.
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:41 PM   #932
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Those pesky dollar signs for clarity.

Curious source for the cost US trillions? How much of that is self imposed IE lock downs, crippling supply chain, and shutting down small businesses? Vs direct medical related costs?
How much medical costs were spared from lock downs? How many deaths were spared? How much medical costs, reduced productivity, restoration in supply chains, etc could be prevented if everyone got the vaccine, not to mention, lives lost? What are we up to now? 650k+ deaths. How much could have been saved if this pandemic was better managed from the onset? How much money could have been saved if people wore masks and socially distanced? So many unknowns and what ifs.

What we do know is that the vaccine is 99% effective at preventing hospitalizations and deaths from COVID. It is the cheapest and fastest way to reduce health costs related to this pandemic, and it is the fastest way to recover the work force, the economy and the productivity moving forward. Do you deny that?
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:44 PM   #933
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If what you are saying is true, that you have gained mastery over controlling your weight but intentionally became almost morbidly obese, you are not a very smart guy. Not that this comes as any surprise based on your previous statements.

You know, a few years ago I had the privilege to meet a gentleman who was 105 years old. He was a resident at the senior home where my father resided and I would see him sitting on a couch in the common area or walking around unassisted, with a young lady at his side. Most Sundays I went to see my dad and often Uncle Moe as they called him, would be on the adjacent couch listening in or adding to our conversation.

It made me wonder if there really was a secret formula to living so long and still having a quality of life. I did a fair bit or reading and looking for answers. I read many anecdotal stories of people in Okinawa, Italy, and the countries that have the most centenarians.
Genetics is something we have little control of but of course that is a factor to longevity.

But there was only one thing all the many people surveyed in various studies had in common.

NONE of these people had ever been 2hat is classified as obes3, in their entire lifetimes. NONE.
One, i said by BMI standards which is a little misleading, not that it is/was my intention, but someone smart enough to understand what that means would understeer what it implies. Admittedly the last 10lbs was not intended and was from getting caught up in the lifestyle succumbing to weakness and over indulging. Eating cookies, apple crisp, and cinnamon rolls on the daily.

Two, you know how many geniuses/scientists have used themselves as a test subject to experiment with when doing research or a study of some sort?

Three, maybe ill think of a third later. At some point i need to work.
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:59 PM   #934
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How much medical costs were spared from lock downs? How many deaths were spared? How much medical costs, reduced productivity, restoration in supply chains, etc could be prevented if everyone got the vaccine, not to mention, lives lost? What are we up to now? 650k+ deaths. How much could have been saved if this pandemic was better managed from the onset? How much money could have been saved if people wore masks and socially distanced? So many unknowns and what ifs.

What we do know is that the vaccine is 99% effective at preventing hospitalizations and deaths from COVID. It is the cheapest and fastest way to reduce health costs related to this pandemic, and it is the fastest way to recover the work force, the economy and the productivity moving forward. Do you deny that?
Still curious to the source for the Trillions, I would love to look into that,

and we will never know the alternative scenario of without shut downs etc.. although I still think it could have be drastically reduced without a full lockdown, just other measures, anecdotally my company still has hundreds of people here never shutdown, and hasn't had a widespread outbreak, only a very few have even contracted it, no deaths. but the passed is all shoulda woulda coulda at this point.

source for "vaccine is 99% effective at preventing hospitalizations and deaths from COVID"?

"It is the cheapest and fastest way to reduce health costs related to this pandemic, Do you deny that?"
I do not at this time deny that. but also do not think that that justifies mandating, forcing, or imposing major inconveniences to those that do not vaccinate.

"and it is the fastest way to recover the work force, the economy and the productivity moving forward." not necessarily. but based on previous arguments doubt we will ever agree on this point.
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Old 09-13-2021, 03:11 PM   #935
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86TOYO2K17 you won't find a lot of takers on your idea.

Spuds idea, except for the part where unvaxxed pay for vaxxed covid care (which would be looked upon as punitive) sounds fair and equitable. Of course it will never happen but this is a hypothetical discussion.
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Old 09-13-2021, 03:43 PM   #936
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Still curious to the source for the Trillions, I would love to look into that,

and we will never know the alternative scenario of without shut downs etc.. although I still think it could have be drastically reduced without a full lockdown, just other measures, anecdotally my company still has hundreds of people here never shutdown, and hasn't had a widespread outbreak, only a very few have even contracted it, no deaths. but the passed is all shoulda woulda coulda at this point.

source for "vaccine is 99% effective at preventing hospitalizations and deaths from COVID"?

"It is the cheapest and fastest way to reduce health costs related to this pandemic, Do you deny that?"
I do not at this time deny that. but also do not think that that justifies mandating, forcing, or imposing major inconveniences to those that do not vaccinate.

"and it is the fastest way to recover the work force, the economy and the productivity moving forward." not necessarily. but based on previous arguments doubt we will ever agree on this point.
We could compare to other countries. We have data now, and we will have plenty of data in the future to show what would have been the best course, but all that is easier said in hindsight than in the moment. What we know now is the vaccine is the cheapest and fastest way to get us out of this situation.

Plenty of data from states and the government are showing the same thing. This is old news.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/covid...-nonvaccinated

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...ccine-studies/

The vaccine mandate isn't much of an inconvenience, and far from a major inconvenience. The vaccine takes little to no time. The mandate has provisions that work is required to give someone paid time to go get the shots. There is little excuse in terms of time or costs for the individual.

Do you have an alternative to the vaccine that is cheaper and faster at eliminating the pandemic? Seems like most people just say is to ignore the pandemic, and to put everyone back to work regardless and just let anyone get vaccinated who wants to get vaccinated. Well, that is pretty much what we have been doing. Hospitals are overwhelmed. Workers are avoiding work. Businesses are throwing money at workers, but it doesn't help because no one wants to trade their health or their family's health for money. They are offering nurses a $10k hiring bonus at my hospital, $350 incentive per shift to work and not call out, incentives to ancillary workers, and huge payouts to traveling nurses, yet it still is impossible to fill all the shifts. Why? Because people are breaking down from this pandemic and aren't going to trade their physical or mental wellbeing for money. My wife is a manager and can't find workers. Her whole industry is trying to get workers with incentives and higher pay, but the store is down dozens of workers and operating on the edge. What is your solution?
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Old 09-13-2021, 07:44 PM   #937
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We could compare to other countries. We have data now, and we will have plenty of data in the future to show what would have been the best course, but all that is easier said in hindsight than in the moment. What we know now is the vaccine is the cheapest and fastest way to get us out of this situation.

Plenty of data from states and the government are showing the same thing. This is old news.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/covid...-nonvaccinated

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...ccine-studies/

The vaccine mandate isn't much of an inconvenience, and far from a major inconvenience. The vaccine takes little to no time. The mandate has provisions that work is required to give someone paid time to go get the shots. There is little excuse in terms of time or costs for the individual.

Do you have an alternative to the vaccine that is cheaper and faster at eliminating the pandemic? Seems like most people just say is to ignore the pandemic, and to put everyone back to work regardless and just let anyone get vaccinated who wants to get vaccinated. Well, that is pretty much what we have been doing. Hospitals are overwhelmed. Workers are avoiding work. Businesses are throwing money at workers, but it doesn't help because no one wants to trade their health or their family's health for money. They are offering nurses a $10k hiring bonus at my hospital, $350 incentive per shift to work and not call out, incentives to ancillary workers, and huge payouts to traveling nurses, yet it still is impossible to fill all the shifts. Why? Because people are breaking down from this pandemic and aren't going to trade their physical or mental wellbeing for money. My wife is a manager and can't find workers. Her whole industry is trying to get workers with incentives and higher pay, but the store is down dozens of workers and operating on the edge. What is your solution?
Give everyone a choice - get vaccinated or go into isolation/exile until there have been no cases nationally for one year.
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Old 09-13-2021, 08:41 PM   #938
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Give everyone a choice - get vaccinated or go into isolation/exile until there have been no cases nationally for one year.
Make a reality show called Unvaccinated and Afraid.
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