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View Poll Results: Which jab have you had?
Pfizer 53 51.96%
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Old 06-18-2021, 08:53 AM   #2801
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When fear sells, it's hard to get the truth.

The CDC data says that those most vulnerable are elderly and with co-morbidities but when was the last time you heard any mainstream news outlet mention that? Yet generic quarantines don't discriminate between age groups that would've been more effective focused on the elderly instead of schoolchildren.

80% of all deaths occurred in the over 65 population that is 16% of the population. The age 49 and younger death rate is 0.00011%, 90 times less than the elderly group.
The basis of lockdowns where I live in Ontario Canada is the number of daily reported cases. This combined with the number of those hospitalized and in the ICU, with the intention that priority#1 is making sure the medical system is restored to deal with regular public health. I am not sure that locking down the elderly or those with medical conditions would prevent or reduce the hospitalizations in the 3rd wave since the most vulnerable are already double vaccinated. A crippled healthcare system is not an acceptable condition of ending restrictions. That increases OVERALL mortality rates and suffering which should be prevented.


In the 2nd wave we had lots of infected people walking around, many asymptomatic while many vulnerable or elderly people were locked down in longterm care homes. If they did not require help from people from outside or if they were able to screen employees every single day this could have been effective. My father who was elderly and otherwise in OK health caught it from a PCW while he was locked down last Dec in his senior residence. He required assistance showering. Locking seniors down and letting the less vulnerable live without such restriction was a highly flawed approach since there was no way to guarantee the virus wouldn't be brought to the vulnerable by people doing their jobs.
It''s frustrating and oppressive on those less vulnerable, of course, but I am guessing a computer simulation of the 3rd wave as conditions exist with no lockdowns would have crippled every hospital to no end, resulting in greater suffering and mortality.
In the end we must accept there is no conspiracy, and the authority to decide on restrictions is given to your elected officials who are being advised by their appointed medical advisors.
Im sure it's s a lot easier to focus on the social and economic side of things when you or your loved ones haven't experienced catastrophic loss of life..
I've lost lots of income during this pandemic. I know that as long as I am alive and well I will recover. Can't say that for a whole lot of other people though, sadly.
Let's just all get vaccinated ASAP.
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Old 06-18-2021, 09:08 AM   #2802
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Not sure what the colors are showing since there is no legend, but yes it is more impactful to those over 65, as are most diseases that have a widespread impact.

Georgia's stats site for Covid is interesting as it lets you do some of your own cuts, or even download the raw data.

While yes, the severe impact grows as you age, just as interesting is the number of cases, where the majority are under 50, which means they were "spreaders", and why vaccination will make a difference in that group.
Quoted For Truth. Thank you @Dadhawk. This is exactly the point that needs to be made. As I noted in another thread.

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As to pushing vaccination in groups with high survival rates we need to remember the goal of the vaccination campaign (actually any vaccination campaign). It is to stop the spread of the virus. Ignoring a potential pool of vectors defeats that purpose. There seems to be considerable difficulty among the population when it comes to understanding that basic concept. If you want to eliminate a viral threat, you need to remove places where it can find a safe harbor. That means preventing anyone from getting it, not just those likely to die.
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Old 06-18-2021, 11:54 AM   #2803
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Not sure what the colors are showing since there is no legend, but yes it is more impactful to those over 65, as are most diseases that have a widespread impact.
I emailed CDC for an explanation of the legend yesterday but haven't heard back. I suspect it could be comparing US to other nations.

I've no issue with being vaccinated voluntarily.

Edit: Just saw @Wally86 post, sure looks the same.
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:13 PM   #2804
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I think it should be manslaughter if you thumb your nose at precautions and end up infecting someone who dies. Negligent endangerment if you get anyone sick.
Self-centered "I won't die so it's fine" is so far off the mark.
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:16 PM   #2805
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I think it should be manslaughter if you thumb your nose at precautions and end up infecting someone who dies. Negligent endangerment if you get anyone sick.
Self-centered "I won't die so it's fine" is so far off the mark.
No idea how you would prove or disprove someone did what you are saying, that's a very big can of worms.
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:43 PM   #2806
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No idea how you would prove or disprove someone did what you are saying, that's a very big can of worms.
IMO ideally if contact tracing had actually become "good enough", that would've been one way..

I don't think the US ever really got it to a good, usable point though.
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:53 PM   #2807
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IMO ideally if contact tracing had actually become "good enough", that would've been one way..

I don't think the US ever really got it to a good, usable point though.
Maybe early on, but at this point I doubt any "victim" could prove a single person exposed them to the virus. Even vaccinated persons in theory can be a carrier (not sure that has been fully disproved yet). Then you might have to prove criminal intent on the part of the "perpetrator" or that the carrier didn't have a reason for not getting the vaccine.
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:28 PM   #2808
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Maybe early on, but at this point I doubt any "victim" could prove a single person exposed them to the virus. Even vaccinated persons in theory can be a carrier (not sure that has been fully disproved yet). Then you might have to prove criminal intent on the part of the "perpetrator" or that the carrier didn't have a reason for not getting the vaccine.
I think you only have to prove gross negligence (depends on the degree?). If it the rules are specifically stated, and someone ignores them, then they are negligent. If the rules are insufficient, then that is another matter.
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Old 06-18-2021, 04:37 PM   #2809
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Maybe early on, but at this point I doubt any "victim" could prove a single person exposed them to the virus. Even vaccinated persons in theory can be a carrier (not sure that has been fully disproved yet). Then you might have to prove criminal intent on the part of the "perpetrator" or that the carrier didn't have a reason for not getting the vaccine.
I think proof beyond a reasonable doubt (for a criminal case) or to a preponderance of evidence (civil) isn't really the point. If someone refuses vaccination for a non-medical reason, catches the disease, is asymptomatic or mildly sick, and infects another person who dies - that death is on them - full stop. No ifs ands or buts. It may not be a criminal matter or provide a cause of action for a civil suit, but it's their fucking fault. It sometimes makes me wish I could believe in gods, heavens, hells, and all of that stuff just so I could imagine all those unnamed assholes, living free now, spending eternity in Dante's Inferno.
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Old 06-18-2021, 06:35 PM   #2810
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I'm curious what those calling for severe penalties for those infected through no fault of their own will say if investigations prove the research, manufacture and distribution becomes traceable to identifiable individuals and governments and what should the penalties be? My guess is nothing will happen except in the US where the ambulance chasing mesothelioma bottom feeders will create new fertile ground.
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Old 06-18-2021, 07:53 PM   #2811
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I'm curious what those calling for severe penalties for those infected through no fault of their own will say if investigations prove the research, manufacture and distribution becomes traceable to identifiable individuals and governments and what should the penalties be? My guess is nothing will happen except in the US where the ambulance chasing mesothelioma bottom feeders will create new fertile ground.
Salty much?

Nobody is saying prosecute everyone who gets it, just those that don't take the required precautions to avoid passing it on.

There is precedence for it if you look at STDs and such. Typically easier to prove in those cases.
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Old 06-18-2021, 08:39 PM   #2812
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Salty much?

Nobody is saying prosecute everyone who gets it, just those that don't take the required precautions to avoid passing it on.

There is precedence for it if you look at STDs and such. Typically easier to prove in those cases.
I think we're on different pages. I'm talking about what to do about those who were involved in the financing, design and development of what is apparently a man made lab created virus who then spread it around the globe. Without those conditions, there would've been nothing to pass on. I don't think we should be blaming the victims at all but should be looking at the perps.
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Old 06-18-2021, 08:48 PM   #2813
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I think we're on different pages. I'm talking about what to do about those who were involved in the financing, design and development of what is apparently a man made lab created virus who then spread it around the globe. Without those conditions, there would've been nothing to pass on. I don't think we should be blaming the victims at all but should be looking at the perps.
Yeah, you are going to have to provide a source on that claim.
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Old 06-18-2021, 09:21 PM   #2814
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I'm curious what those calling for severe penalties for those infected through no fault of their own will say if investigations prove the research, manufacture and distribution becomes traceable to identifiable individuals and governments and what should the penalties be? My guess is nothing will happen except in the US where the ambulance chasing mesothelioma bottom feeders will create new fertile ground.
I don't see the route for penalties per se.

However, like I've suggested in either this thread or one of the countless ones that preceded it, we should observe in the same way that smoking is.

Basically segregate people out from those who don't want second-hand smoke. Don't allow smoking in certain areas. Etc. I believe there can be some citations given if people are found to be smoking in a non-smoking area and obviously private businesses can just kick people doing so out.

That's the right approach to take.

But just like there are smokers who refuse to respect other people's boundaries and wishes, the same will be for people who refuse to vaccinate and then go out and about.
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