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Old 01-13-2021, 05:42 PM   #603
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Everyone should fear COVID, if not directly of its effects on themselves then on its effects on others, and thus, they should fear the roll they have in potentially transmitting that virus to a vulnerable person.

Lawmakers have been forced into action. Society, in aggregate, has not shown an ability to prevent the spread of this virus on their own by following mask mandates and social distancing recommendations. The data is OVERWHELMING. Not wearing a mask and gathering spreads the virus. Again, lawmakers have been forced into action in order to maintain a functional healthcare system, so it does not get completely flooded and overwhelmed into a gridlock and utter chaos.

Look at this event. Which person is the asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic person in the group? How many people will be positive from this event? We have direct examples all over the country of super spreading events like weddings directly leading to deaths. This isn't a debatable subject. Here is an article from the CDC talking about a wedding reception in Maine that resulted in 177 new cases, seven hospitalization and seven deaths (four of which were in hospital).



https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6945a5.htm



It is negligent. I think it is your right to not get a vaccine, and it is their right to suspend employees who don't. If you do get a vaccine, but it fails to protect you, and you get COVID anyways and spread it then no one can blame you for making an honest attempt at protecting the patients you serve. The vaccine is another form of PPE for you and the patient, no different than your mask, gloves, gown or anything else that creates a barrier from them to you and you to them.

Screening isn't done everywhere, and it isn't performed with a high degree of scrutiny. We use infrared scanners on the necks of people walking into the hospital after walking out of 30-50 degree or colder weather. This isn't an accurate way to screen caregivers. Our hospital has said it will follow the optional recommendations by the state to test their employees, saying they would begin testing weekly, but that was weeks ago, and they haven't, yet SNFs, assisted living facilities, longer term care facilities, etc have had this mandate or recommendation and have been randomly or broadly screening its employees for months. Why not the hospital too? We have had multiple outbreaks in the hospital, but what the hospital fears the most is finding asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic caregivers because they are worried about staffing levels, accountability, the need to do contact tracing, and the cost of paying healthy workers overtime to compensate for staff who are quarantined--profits over patients. If we are symptomatic then we are advised to stay home and get tested, except our work will not pay for it unless they determined or are requesting the test related to a workplace exposure. I could go on with other grievances and examples.



Lawmakers will be forced to act until hospitalizations fall, enough ICU beds become available, the transmission rate drops and the death rate drops. It is fairly simple. Every day where we see rising deaths is a day of loss, is a day of failure and is a day that demonstrates how we are getting further from, instead of closer to, returning to our normal way of life. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is a reality that needs to be reiterated until it improves, so we don't devolve into complacency.
Here is a crazy idea, how about instead of expecting an entire population of people to adhere to strict guidelines for over a year over a virus with a +99.5% survival rate we instead channel our efforts to those who are at risk instead?

If you're in the at risk population then socially distance and wear a N95 mask and gloves until you're able to get the vaccine.

You bring up asymptomatic carriers but would you mind providing the data on the likelihood of an asymptomatic person transmitting the virus to others?

Aside from being suspended what other penalties should come with not getting the vaccine? Banned from flying, not able to shop in stores, unable to go to public events? All for a virus that the majority of people shrug off in a day or two?

You say that lawmakers will be forced to act, yet California is going through their worst spike to date and people are still allowed to film movies Are you allowed to get a haircut still or did that get banned again?

Also, where are the military ships like the USNS Comfort right now? Where are the emergency hospitals being built?

Again, I'm not saying covid isn't real, I'm not saying that people don't die from covid, what I'm saying is that the measures being taken in the name of public safety are unfounded, and not worth the cost that comes with them.
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Old 01-13-2021, 06:07 PM   #604
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What I'm suggesting is the "risk" is not nearly as high as some people would like the population to believe. The amount of fear mongering in relation to this virus is completely off the charts when you review all the data available. I guess for some people it's easy to pat themselves on the back and pretend that all of these mandates and restrictions are absolutely necessary, but in reality that's not the case.

This is apparent when people like Gavin Newsom decide to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a dinner indoors with people not wearing masks and not a part of his family while working class citizens are struggling just to survive.

To be honest I'm astounded that people can be so in favor of these restrictions when places like California are currently having their highest spikes in both cases and deaths despite having some of the strictest mandates in the country.

But hey, if you agree with limiting free speech, making vaccines mandatory for everyone, and giving the government the ultimate say in what's allowed and not allowed on even the smallest level then you are free to that opinion just like I'm free to my own (for now)
You are making a few associations that are outside the subject of discussion.

Sure people are hypocrites, a virus doesn't change that. Are you saying that one individual really knows what he is doing so you will always follow his lead? Somehow it seems that you really feel the opposite. If you are using him as an example of an asshole, then his action would be wrong, as in not something you would want to be associated with doing.

My understanding of California's problem is that many people just aren't listening to the the regulations. Which seems to be precisely what you are advocating for.

Nobody is limiting your right to free speech because of this vaccine or virus. Actions or inactions have consequences and speech invites argument.

I again propose that we could settle this with better contact tracing and bringing manslaughter charges against those not taking certain precautions who have a certain likelihood of infecting somebody who has later died of covid-19.
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Old 01-13-2021, 06:25 PM   #605
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Hey guys it looks like roughly 40,000 people die from guns every year in America. Let's go ahead and ban those too. Think of all the lives that will be saved. Great idea, right?.
Im a fan of strict gun control

Hell, we amended our laws nearly 30 years ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_of_Australia

Has worked well here in sunny Straya
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Old 01-13-2021, 06:42 PM   #606
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Hey guys it looks like roughly 40,000 people die from guns every year in America. Let's go ahead and ban those too. Think of all the lives that will be saved. Great idea, right?.
I really hate these kind of statements, because by saying this you're making a huge assumption that nobody cares about that kind of shit.

I also want programs in place to keep people from driving drunk

Programs to reduce/prevent the opioid epidemic.

Fortunately it's actually _easier_ in some ways to confront COVID right now than it is to immediately solve those other problems.

Why can't we work at one when we have the opportunity for it?? It's not like addiction where we can't prevent someone who's hooked on it from being desperate to get it by any ways they can.
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It sounds to me like the delicate, metallic sounds of piston skirts slapping against the cylinder walls
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Now, if it was three feet long and you were using all that leverage
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Old 01-13-2021, 07:10 PM   #607
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I again propose that we could settle this with better contact tracing and bringing manslaughter charges against those not taking certain precautions who have a certain likelihood of infecting somebody who has later died of covid-19.
you're joking, right?
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Old 01-13-2021, 07:43 PM   #608
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you're joking, right?
I think it's more extreme than just requiring masks and distancing of course. It's more an alternative argument to proactive mandates for mask wearing and distancing than an actual suggestion. It is already illegal to kill somebody through reckless acts, such as driving drunk or pushing them down some stairs. The novel part is just saying that not following pandemic precautions that we all know about is a reckless act. That way we are free to do whatever, but will suffer consequences if we kill somebody without taking appropriate precautions.
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Old 01-13-2021, 08:11 PM   #609
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I think it's more extreme than just requiring masks and distancing of course. It's more an alternative argument to proactive mandates for mask wearing and distancing than an actual suggestion. It is already illegal to kill somebody through reckless acts, such as driving drunk or pushing them down some stairs. The novel part is just saying that not following pandemic precautions that we all know about is a reckless act. That way we are free to do whatever, but will suffer consequences if we kill somebody without taking appropriate precautions.
What’s your take on allowing corporate stores like Costco etc to prosper while shutting down small businesses?
Or social distancing in airports then being elbow to elbow on the plane 10 minutes later?

I would love to hear from all of you? This will be interesting
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Old 01-13-2021, 08:28 PM   #610
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What I'm suggesting is the "risk" is not nearly as high as some people would like the population to believe.
I don't know what you mean by "some people." Can you identify these people? Can you define your interpretation of the risk specifically? Can it be quantified?

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The amount of fear mongering in relation to this virus is completely off the charts when you review all the data available.
Me? I'm pretty confident that I've reviewed more of the available data than the average person would. The data I've reviewed only strengthens my resolve to do all that I personally can to keep myself from potentially infecting anyone.

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I guess for some people it's easy to pat themselves on the back and pretend that all of these mandates and restrictions are absolutely necessary, but in reality that's not the case.
Who are these people patting themselves on the back? I would love to see us all do what we can to help each other without any mandates. Even Sweden has finally given in to the unpleasant interpretation of the data. I wish it was different but regardless, as our knowledge evolves, so does my behavior, not begrudgingly, but with a willingness to follow the spirit of the exercise to the best of my personal ability.

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This is apparent when people like Gavin Newsom decide to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a dinner indoors with people not wearing masks and not a part of his family while working class citizens are struggling just to survive.
What does this mean? What is apparent?

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To be honest I'm astounded that people can be so in favor of these restrictions when places like California are currently having their highest spikes in both cases and deaths despite having some of the strictest mandates in the country.
I don't understand this either.

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But hey, if you agree with limiting free speech, making vaccines mandatory for everyone, and giving the government the ultimate say in what's allowed and not allowed on even the smallest level then you are free to that opinion just like I'm free to my own (for now)
I appreciate the freedom for us to express our opinions but I have expressed none of those. I'm happy to discuss my opinions on any subject you like.
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Old 01-13-2021, 08:51 PM   #611
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Whatís your take on allowing corporate stores like Costco etc to prosper while shutting down small businesses?
Or social distancing in airports then being elbow to elbow on the plane 10 minutes later?
I'd say about 8/10 times I've eaten out or ordered food to go since this whole thing started I've been going to many random small stores/businesses/restaurants.

There are also smaller markets that aren't big names like Safeway, Costco, Target that sell toilet paper, paper towels, and other essentials. Those are all still open (though many people don't think to go to them!).

Now, while saying that, I will agree there are just as many (hell, even a lot more) that are completely unsupported and have had to close. But let's not ignore that there are a large amount of small businesses that simply do not get the support they need due to most people preferring large, more well-known businesses.

As far as your comment about airports, I haven't flown anywhere since last February, which was prior to the pandemic situation really becoming a problem.

I've wanted to visit my siblings in LA and Chicago, but have chosen not to take flights to do so.

So the airlines care more about their finances and cramming customers in. It's definitely wrong. Though, while I will admit I'm rather uneducated on the subject, the air filtration systems are supposedly quite good. Though personally I'd still say they should be continuing flights with a lower capacity. But that's not up to me.

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I would love to hear from all of you? This will be interesting
What exactly is interesting about this?
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It sounds to me like the delicate, metallic sounds of piston skirts slapping against the cylinder walls
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Now, if it was three feet long and you were using all that leverage
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Old 01-13-2021, 09:01 PM   #612
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I'd say about 8/10 times I've eaten out or ordered food to go since this whole thing started I've been going to many random small stores/businesses/restaurants.

There are also smaller markets that aren't big names like Safeway, Costco, Target that sell toilet paper, paper towels, and other essentials. Those are all still open (though many people don't think to go to them!).

Now, while saying that, I will agree there are just as many (hell, even a lot more) that are completely unsupported and have had to close. But let's not ignore that there are a large amount of small businesses that simply do not get the support they need due to most people preferring large, more well-known businesses.

As far as your comment about airports, I haven't flown anywhere since last February, which was prior to the pandemic situation really becoming a problem.

I've wanted to visit my siblings in LA and Chicago, but have chosen not to take flights to do so.

So the airlines care more about their finances and cramming customers in. It's definitely wrong. Though, while I will admit I'm rather uneducated on the subject, the air filtration systems are supposedly quite good. Though personally I'd still say they should be continuing flights with a lower capacity. But that's not up to me.



What exactly is interesting about this?
Thank you for answering.

The filtration systems jus keep recirculating air.
I’m looking forward to hearing others responses to these questions.
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Old 01-13-2021, 09:27 PM   #613
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What’s your take on allowing corporate stores like Costco etc to prosper while shutting down small businesses?
Or social distancing in airports then being elbow to elbow on the plane 10 minutes later?

I would love to hear from all of you? This will be interesting
Well, which specific small business have you been prevented from doing business with? Since March I have been able to support my local restaurants with regular takeout (tipping as if I dined in), go get a haircut at a 4-seat barber (appointment only, 50% capacity, also tipping), hire professionals to maintain/update my house, shop at my local independent grocery, and have my (other) car put back together by an independent collision repair shop. I have not set foot in Costco or similar. The whole time I have worn a mask when out, kept as distant as I could, taken as little time inside as possible, washed hands before and after, and otherwise been away from everyone other than my wife. So my take on supporting small business is that I am doing what I can when I can while meeting all mandated safety precautions. You?

Airplanes should not be packed, airlines should leave space. But mandates and regulations to enforce that would be limiting their freedom I suppose. I was on huge 777 with less than 80 people going from DFW to Orlando for work. That's the way it should be.

Edit, I also work for a small business. We've been doing great, but we aren't really a consumer product kind of company.

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Old 01-13-2021, 09:34 PM   #614
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Thank you for answering.

The filtration systems jus keep recirculating air.
Iím looking forward to hearing others responses to these questions.
Do you know what filters do? Viruses are larger than air molecules and are caught by the filters as the air passes through. Hence the "filtration system".
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Old 01-13-2021, 10:07 PM   #615
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Do you know what filters do? Viruses are larger than air molecules and are caught by the filters as the air passes through. Hence the "filtration system".
interesting though how people seem to get sick on planes. Maybe there are different types of filters.
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Old 01-13-2021, 10:22 PM   #616
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What I'm suggesting is the "risk" is not nearly as high as some people would like the population to believe. The amount of fear mongering in relation to this virus is completely off the charts when you review all the data available. I guess for some people it's easy to pat themselves on the back and pretend that all of these mandates and restrictions are absolutely necessary, but in reality that's not the case.

This is apparent when people like Gavin Newsom decide to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a dinner indoors with people not wearing masks and not a part of his family while working class citizens are struggling just to survive.

To be honest I'm astounded that people can be so in favor of these restrictions when places like California are currently having their highest spikes in both cases and deaths despite having some of the strictest mandates in the country.

But hey, if you agree with limiting free speech, making vaccines mandatory for everyone, and giving the government the ultimate say in what's allowed and not allowed on even the smallest level then you are free to that opinion just like I'm free to my own (for now)
I agree to an extent that some people have misguided fears. Some people fear death when the likelihood is very small, but some people don't fear any long term consequences when there is plenty of evidence to suggest there is reason to be concerned. If getting COVID was clearly shown to be equivalent to being obese for 20 years on your heart, or equivalent to smoking for 30 years on your lungs, then some wouldn't care and others would be very concerned. If it was shown that COVID takes 5-10 years off your life through heart problems, but you will survive the event with mild simples then for many people that would be concerning. We don't have long term data on the effects of COVID in survivors, but the preliminary data is compelling enough to be concerned for many people who care about their long term health and quality of life.

I don't know how California's restrictions compare to other places, but it is miles removed from the lockdowns of early last year. Businesses are open. People are out. People wear masks, but no one is acting like we are in the middle of a pandemic outbreak. When I go on hikes, more people are wearing masks when passing people on the trails. People are still socializing. People are still gathering with family. Most businesses are not closed. It is hard driving down the street to tell what businesses are closed.

Our outbreaks, as bad as they are, actually aren't the worst in the nation when adjusted for capita, yet they should be the worst, especially considering the population density and size of areas like LA.

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Here is a crazy idea, how about instead of expecting an entire population of people to adhere to strict guidelines for over a year over a virus with a +99.5% survival rate we instead channel our efforts to those who are at risk instead?

If you're in the at risk population then socially distance and wear a N95 mask and gloves until you're able to get the vaccine.

You bring up asymptomatic carriers but would you mind providing the data on the likelihood of an asymptomatic person transmitting the virus to others?

Aside from being suspended what other penalties should come with not getting the vaccine? Banned from flying, not able to shop in stores, unable to go to public events? All for a virus that the majority of people shrug off in a day or two?

You say that lawmakers will be forced to act, yet California is going through their worst spike to date and people are still allowed to film movies Are you allowed to get a haircut still or did that get banned again?

Also, where are the military ships like the USNS Comfort right now? Where are the emergency hospitals being built?

Again, I'm not saying covid isn't real, I'm not saying that people don't die from covid, what I'm saying is that the measures being taken in the name of public safety are unfounded, and not worth the cost that comes with them.
Why are strict guidelines so hard? Many other countries did just that to a greater extent with greater compliance, and they don't have the cases or deaths. Many of these countries have returned to work, and their GDP is up. Meanwhile, here we are. You sound like you are in favor of strict guidelines, but just for older adults? Who takes care of older adults? Who lives with older adults? Even if we were able to prevent a single person over 65 from dying or going to the hospital, our healthcare system would be overwhelmed with hospital admissions and ER visits from the general population. This leads to indirect deaths. We have a little less than a million hospital beds in the US, and at any one time, most of them are full. What would happen if the 280+ million people under 65 all were exposed to COVID over a short period?

The likelihood of an asymptomatic person transmitting a virus to someone else ranges from 0-100%. It depends on the situation, so if we are talking about a couple who kisses and exchanges other fluids regularly then it is 100%. If we are talking about people wearing surgical masks who socially distance and briefly meet and don't talk then the odds are very close to 0%. There is everything in between from the person who's mask falls below their nose to the people talking face to face that don't wear a mask to the people that pick their nose, sneeze in their hand then shake the hand of others and everything in between. I think you should know that quantifying such a thing under such a wide range of possible scenarios is virtually impossible, so I'm curious why you would even ask such a ridiculous question.

We could do what our founding fathers did when there was a smallpox outbreak and send in the troops to force people to get a vaccine. I don't think that is necessary. Like I said, businesses can do what they want. It is their business, so if they want to mandate a negative COVID test or mandate vaccines then they can. They don't mandate vaccines to fly right now, so I doubt that will change, but that is because we have herd immunity on smallpox and measles and other diseases, so I doubt they will require a vaccine when we reach endemic levels or herd immunity, just like they don't require the flu vaccine to fly. I think you are reaching for extreme examples because you want it to be an all or none scenario, but there is a big difference between requiring vaccines for healthcare workers and requiring vaccines to go to Target. Currently, healthcare workers are required to be vaccinated for MMR, so I don't completely understand the objection.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...fighting-story

Our failure is systemic from our government and our institutions to the individuals in our society. We could have acted swiftly and decisively with countermeasures, and we could have stopped this virus and been back to a more normal and open society. Instead, we have this.

You create this false dichotomy where we have to trade lives for our economy. First off, lives are precious, and they are priceless, and they are more important than someone's ability to go to a supermarket without having to wear a mask or someone getting to go to a movie theatre or to their favorite restaurant or bar. Moreover, the false dichotomy doesn't have to be the case. Other countries have provided monthly aid to their citizens. Other countries have extended unemployment. Other countries have restricted evictions or foreclosures and provided mortgage relief. Other countries have supported small businesses, so they don't go bankrupt. We could do the same to the same extent, but we haven't done nearly as much. We have a problem issuing one time checks.
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