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Old 01-10-2021, 07:47 PM   #547
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It is an interesting example of cognitive dissonance.
this



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The risk of anaphylaxis to the vaccine is around 1 in a million, yet I have consistently heard that people are afraid of that, which is a striking level of cognitive dissonance. Anaphylaxis is a treatable event that is rarely deadly when appropriate care is quickly taken.
also this

What is the rate for peanut allergy? Bees? Hello, epi pens? I attribute it to a lack of ability to think critically.
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Old 01-10-2021, 11:00 PM   #548
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I've known front line medical staff (nurses) who've contracted COVID-19 and after having had it and worked in departments with victims of it, they feel very strongly about how needed the vaccine is.

Can we get past this whole "corrupt media and politicians" shit (also we're veering dangerously close to pissing off Hachi...)?

You can feel free to go visit any hospitals in the most heavily affected places if you want to see first-hand with your own eyes what it's doing to people.
I am a healthcare worker and have been working this entire time. That's cool that you have anecdotal experiences, but my comment was related to the roughly 80% of people who hesitated to get their vaccine. I'm not saying the media is corrupt, I'm saying they greatly exaggerate the virus which is absolutely true and shouldn't be a surprise because their whole industry relies on views/clicks. Good news is rarely good for business.

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Most of them are very much uninformed. Many of them still believe the propaganda that COVID deaths are over-reported, but when I show them the graph on All Cause Mortality their tune changes, especially when that graph suggest we are under-reporting deaths. Most of them believe 375k deaths are still relatively small numbers because that is only 0.11% of the population and that percentage doesn't create a sense of concern for their risks, but then when I point out that 0.11% is more than 1 in a 1000, or when I point out that the death toll in some areas is closer to 1 in 250, or remind them that those numbers get worse each day, or remind them that the long term effects could be as significant as 1 in 50 or something worse, then their tune can change. Even that number doesn't seem as bad when you say it is just 2%, but 1 in 50 is enough to mean dozens of people you may know at work or in your family could be affected. What is worse is that the 10 year statistics could be like 1 in 5, but time has a way of also diminishing the sense of risk. Denial is powerful too.

Then it goes back to the false propaganda, misinformation and fear about the vaccine. The risk of anaphylaxis to the vaccine is around 1 in a million, yet I have consistently heard that people are afraid of that, which is a striking level of cognitive dissonance. Anaphylaxis is a treatable event that is rarely deadly when appropriate care is quickly taken. So far over, 24 million people have been vaccinated worldwide. We have potentially one reported death, which is almost certainly not from the vaccine, yet I guarantee you that people will weigh the risks of getting the vaccine as worse than COVID.

There is fear of the unknown like getting cancer. There is no evidence the vaccines could cause cancer. There may be no mechanism for the vaccines to cause cancer. The risk of long term complications from exposure to COVID could far outweigh someone's likelihood of getting cancer from the vaccine, but people are equally as poor at assessing their risk.

Many healthcare workers might falsely believe they already have had COVID at some point, either asymptomatically or mildly symptomatically. This is what most of my coworkers believe. We all joke around how we all have MRSA, so it is a running joke that we all have had it. If a person believes it is impossible to prevent the inevitable then they already believe they were exposed, and this is amplified if someone cares for COVID patients. The few people who I know who have had COVID via a positive antibody test or PCR test are ironically all getting or have gotten the vaccine.

I could go on. The point is that healthcare workers may not be the most informed or educated individuals to be following their poor example.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/healt...ath/index.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/c...-distribution/

https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/ar...-about-vaccine
You keep emphasizing fear regarding the vaccine, but have you considered that maybe people don't fear the vaccine, and also don't fear coronavirus? You make it seem like the data is scary, when in reality it's the opposite. I'm not claiming that Covid19 isn't real, but when you view the data it's simply not the terrifying mega virus that some people would like you to believe. It certainly doesn't warrant forcing small businesses to close or mandating mask wearing for the general public.

To assume that the people who chose to decline the vaccine are uneducated is rather ignorant on your part.

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All the healthcare/at-risk/biotech (all on the high priority list) people I know are either eager to receive the vaccine or have already received their first shot. Every single one, which is only double digits but still kind of an overwhelming majority in my sample.
That's nice, I'd be interested to see what the final breakdown is once everyone has the option to receive the vaccine. That's assuming they don't make it mandatory for the general public.
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Old 01-11-2021, 03:44 AM   #549
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I am a healthcare worker...............
WTF, funwheeldrive, you and I must be looking at two different data sets -
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Old 01-11-2021, 12:53 PM   #550
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I am a healthcare worker and have been working this entire time. That's cool that you have anecdotal experiences, but my comment was related to the roughly 80% of people who hesitated to get their vaccine. I'm not saying the media is corrupt, I'm saying they greatly exaggerate the virus which is absolutely true and shouldn't be a surprise because their whole industry relies on views/clicks. Good news is rarely good for business.

You keep emphasizing fear regarding the vaccine, but have you considered that maybe people don't fear the vaccine, and also don't fear coronavirus? You make it seem like the data is scary, when in reality it's the opposite. I'm not claiming that Covid19 isn't real, but when you view the data it's simply not the terrifying mega virus that some people would like you to believe. It certainly doesn't warrant forcing small businesses to close or mandating mask wearing for the general public.

To assume that the people who chose to decline the vaccine are uneducated is rather ignorant on your part.
What do you do in healthcare? Do you work in Thurston County Washington? That is a fairly rural area. Are you following what is happening around the rest of the world and US? I understand the media likes to hype up anything they are covering, but you should have the skillset to determine how bad things are. You don't think that a virus that has killed 10x the number of people as the seasonal flu, even though we have been on lockdowns and are wearing masks, is that bad? Why is that? Because it mostly affects those 65 and older, so it is no big deal? Because it hasn't overwhelmed every hospital? What metric do you use to determine whether this is bad enough?

I don't have to assume anything. I asked them. I talked to dozens and dozens of my coworkers. I've read the articles where they interviewed people who say why they are not getting the vaccine. Although I can't say why everyone is not getting the vaccine, I gave a list of the 5 common reasons that I have heard and read. Outside of people joking about growing a third arm, developing super powers, having tracking devices injected in their body, etc. the reasons I listed are the only reasons.

If people didn't have fear then they would just get the vaccine. Like wearing a mask, it is how we will get the economy open again, but that point seems to evade people just like wearing a mask. Getting vaccinated is the fastest way we can fully reopen society with no masks or restrictions--outside of allowing this virus to infect everyone until we get to herd immunity and killing millions, which is not an option. Society will remain in lockdowns and stores will have restrictions until we drop the death rate and infection rate to endemic levels.

I really don't understand as healthcare workers why people would want to take a chance of potentially getting the virus and possibly giving the virus to their patients who could die. We have had several outbreaks in our hospital requiring extensive contact tracing and have had several nosocomial infections. In both cases it was determined that what most likely occurred was a false negative PCR test and a healthcare worker was exposed and then exposed multiple patients. Several patients who had been discharged ended up returning days later with fever and respiratory complications requiring admission.
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Old 01-11-2021, 01:00 PM   #551
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I'm going in today for my second dose of the Pfizer.

On a separate note: my wife's coworker has a grandmother who is 81 who is dying of COVID. She has been in the hospital for several days, but is not improving despite prophylactic IV antibiotics, fluids and other therapies. She is on 10-12 lpm of oxygen on a non-rebreather, but her o2 sat is just getting worse. They want to intubate her, but she is refusing. The family is going to try to go to Southern California and visit her to convince her to keep fighting, but they won't be able to visit because she is in isolation. Frankly, she is probably not going to make it, even if they tubed her.
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Old 01-11-2021, 01:11 PM   #552
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I'm going in today for my second dose of the Pfizer.

On a separate note: my wife's coworker has a grandmother who is 81 who is dying of COVID. ...
So sorry to hear that for her coworker (and everyone loseing this battle).

I managed to get MomHawk's parents scheduled for their first dose this week as we opened it up to spouses, parents and in-laws of employees over 65 (Georgia is opening up to that class in general this week).

Her Dad, who has had a bad set of luck in the last 5 years with various survivable but weakening illnesses, would not survive even a mild Covid case I suspect. They have basically been isolated for a year now, except when he was in the hospital for a bad infection, then later a broken femur.

i got them one of the last two reservations as they filled up quickly. This is using the last of the vaccine we received for staff that did not get used by staff.
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Old 01-11-2021, 01:12 PM   #553
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I'm going in today for my second dose of the Pfizer.
Let us know how you do. I know this is the one that could potentially kick your ass. I get mine on Wednesday at 7:00am as I mentioned earlier.
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Old 01-11-2021, 02:59 PM   #554
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Let us know how you do. I know this is the one that could potentially kick your ass. I get mine on Wednesday at 7:00am as I mentioned earlier.
I just got it. I was warned about the potential for a stronger reaction and a headache. Nothing so far. I'll keep you guys updated.

As mentioned, I plan to get an antibody test next month.
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Old 01-11-2021, 03:33 PM   #555
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UK lockdown getting stricter, news programmes showing and interviewing more people suffering from Covid in hospitals. The government is keen to keep tighter control until the vaccine is well and truly out there so they're going for the shock treatment to stop people mingling.
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Old 01-11-2021, 03:40 PM   #556
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I'm going in today for my second dose of the Pfizer.

On a separate note: my wife's coworker has a grandmother who is 81 who is dying of COVID. She has been in the hospital for several days, but is not improving despite prophylactic IV antibiotics, fluids and other therapies. She is on 10-12 lpm of oxygen on a non-rebreather, but her o2 sat is just getting worse. They want to intubate her, but she is refusing. The family is going to try to go to Southern California and visit her to convince her to keep fighting, but they won't be able to visit because she is in isolation. Frankly, she is probably not going to make it, even if they tubed her.
My mom went in a similar fashion. She was 79 when she caught pneumonia but despite our best efforts, she was determined to let go. One of the last laughs we had was when I said "Well, you're going out the same way you lived your whole life, totally in charge."


Godspeed
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Old 01-11-2021, 07:12 PM   #557
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I just found this:

This means 1 out of 54 adults over 75 has died of COVID in New York City, and 1 out of 142 adults 65-74 has died of COVID. It got me curious to compare to the rest of the US. About 1 out of 160 adults over 65 has died. I didn't find info on how many more ended up in the ICU or in the general hospital, but I did find an article that says, even when confounding variables are accounted for like differences in age, hospital capacity, etc. a person is 3x more likely of dying in March than August. They are mostly attributing that to better treatments because they factored out all other variables. I'm sure things have vastly changed from August though because the hospitals are much more constrained on resources. I wouldn't want to be having to get hospitalized now. I keep telling my parents just to isolate. Luckily my mom has gotten her first vaccine shot.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...new-york-city/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...vid-by-age-us/

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a-...hy-11604502372
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Old 01-11-2021, 08:35 PM   #558
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I just found this:

This means 1 out of 54 adults over 75 has died of COVID in New York City, ..............
Well now, THAT got this ol 78 year old man's attention -
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Old 01-11-2021, 10:53 PM   #559
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Well, my almost 93 year old father passed of Covid19 today.

He lived in what I'd consider an upscale senior's home in a nice area in North Toronto and there was a rash of infections there over the last several weeks. I never expected him to be a victim.

We figured he had a few more years in him yet, but every few months he would take a fall and need to get patched up by the one of the staff there. On Dec 26 he got up to see the person who we had assist him showering and as he got up he fell and ended up with a nosebleed that didn't stop. He was taken to the hospital and they made sure there was no head injury before he was released and returned.

I called him the morning of Dec 29 and he could barely breathe and there was already an attendant in his room. When I asked him to put her on the phone she hung up on me. Anyway he was rushed to the hospital, diagnosed with Covid 2 days later and was looking like he was going to be ok. Then more 2 days later he wasn't getting sufficient oxygen saturation and from there things went from 50/50 to dire.

It makes me sad that he left us before he would have otherwise and that I only saw him a few times this year. Before the pandemic I saw him weekly, often with my son who is now 13. I was the only one in the family that saw him in the hospital, then unconscious, and I was in full PPE as specially arranged with them.

We will never know how or when he caught it, whether it was the trip to the hospital or the people that assisted him with medications, brought meals, cleaners.

I only hope this tragedy teaches us how to better mitigate situations regarding contagion in the future. Apparently 48% of respondents in a huge poll admitted to gathering beyond prescribed over the holidays.

I hope greater public education in the future makes a difference.

How is it unavoidable for people working in a home of 200 age 80+ people cant avoid getting infected and passing it? Or how could ambulance operators take someone to an emergency be unable to keep a 92 year old safe? Things I'd best leave for now.

Sadly they emailed us that they were started vaccinations today where my dad lived.
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Old 01-11-2021, 11:34 PM   #560
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Bummer man. I hope this vaccine thing gets figured out. Seems like the insurmountable problem wasn’t vaccine development but scheduling.
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