EVO: GT86 TRD vs Miata MX-5 BBR Turbo

[Boxer486]

Yeah, TRD totally sucks at performance. They have absolutely no idea wtf they are doing compared to someone like BBR.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxmoxipYDp0"]86 TRD Griffon Concept 014 - YouTube[/ame]

Especially when the TRD 'edition' 86 had pretty much no TRD performance parts on it at all.

I wonder who around here sucks at comprehension?

[Trmx2]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

It's actually > +100hp. Miata is 167hp stock, not 200hp.

it's +70 from our car is what I meant.

[Meehow86]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

Wow, just wow. You CONTINUE to miss the original point I was making, which once again, comes down to reading comprehension. Cars priced the same way will not always comparable performance-wise, but they are still put in to the same class. And honestly now I'm just getting bored. You ever hear the saying, "Life isn't fair?" I've seen plenty of NA low horsepower cars murder high horse powered cars around the track. You think they were crying, "it's not fair!"

In this case, TRD DOES SUCK far as performance is concerned, now doesn't it? Throwing a body kit and bigger wheels on a car does not a race car make. In fact it's counterproductive IMHO. There are more videos and data showing this. This videos is showing how the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY (once again, comparing similar priced cars) dedicated to different mods have an effect on performance.

I should sell my car because you don't like what I'm saying!? LOL That has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. SHUT UP! Maybe it's time you look through some of my posts and see just what an embarrassment I actually am…..or maybe I'm a helper? There are a lot of things I've done for this community. I get PM's asking how I did something to my car. I'm a VERY active member on the SoCal 86 Club Facebook page. In fact, I woke up to a "Mention" thanking me for pictures and info on how to paint the headlight housings and encouraging him to do the same. I didn't come up with the idea but I've helped a dozen or so people do it. I've even helped a guy when he purchased his car.

This is the last response you will get from me because, as I mentioned from the beginning, it's a dumb argument. My opinion doesn't have to be the same as yours, and I've always been one to run the car that I brought to the race. I don't make excuses as to why I lost, I just lost. Next time you come back better. Good news about this video is that the Mazda boys are gonna be shocked when they get beaten by a stock looking GT86 at the track. I don't personally think it would take FI to keep up with the MX5 in the video.

By the way, I'll be in Chicago for business this summer if you want to meet up and have a beer. We can continue this conversation then, and meet face to face. Battle out our views on internet videos. PM me if you want.

I was going to write a long response to this but then I just reread your original post. Clearly you're just too ignorant to see how this wasn't a good comparison. (they literally took a car with major engine modifications, raced it against a near stock car, and then said the modified car is better and you thought that was good/made sense?!?!) And now you're talking about how you race people and lose for some reason. BTW, no one ever said TRD isn't a joke when it comes to these cars.

And no, I won't buy a teenager beer.

[Trmx2]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

Yeah, TRD totally sucks at performance. They have absolutely no idea wtf they are doing compared to someone like BBR.

Especially when the TRD 'edition' 86 had pretty much no TRD performance parts on it at all.

I wonder who around here sucks at comprehension?

That was the coolest video EVER!

The entire time in my head I was going "vrrrroooooooommmmmm vrroooooooooommm" lol

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

I wasn't talking about Miata's in a generic sense, but that specific Miata having more grip than that GT86 TRD edition from the video. That particular Miata had an aftermarket suspension, brakes and likely better tires than PS3s.

I think you'll agree that I certainly did not make a linear relationship between power and speed, but I get who you were referring to. But you kind of went the other direction saying the Miata's power advantage was largely irrelevant because it's a small track. I'm saying despite being a small track, it had 15 seconds where the Miata could use it's substantial power advantage. That is no small matter. Count 15 seconds in your head and think about how much having that much more power and torque would help being flat out for that long especially busting out of a turn.

I was mistaken in talking about a 70hp advantage when the Miata actually had a >100hp boost. So doing the equivalent power addition to the 86 would put it above 300hp.

Personally I'm not at all concerned about comparing whatever the Miata does to the 86 at SoW or BW. The Miata has had more than a decade of aftermarket support and user feedback to dial it in and the 86 has already shown it can go faster when the right effort is applied. I'm not at all worried about what lap times will look like for the 86 once the same level of support and experience comes to the community. The 86 platform is still very raw and a large number of users are still what I'd consider casual. Besides, the two cars fulfill two different needs and classes anyway.

i wasnt talking about the miata in a generic sense either. springs and shocks dont equal better handling. anything said here either way is purely speculative.

i never said the power advantage of the miata was irrelevant. i just said that its nowhere near 5+ seconds worth. i dont know why you bring up the stock hp of the miata. the cars compared have 270 and 200 hp.

i dont know why you bother posting here if you arent concerned with comparing these cars. the current mazda hasnt been around for 10 years but even if it did, i dont know why you see that as a performance advantage. having old technology is not an advantage. cars are getting faster, not slower. that doesnt make much sense to me.

Originally Posted by bunny86

Expecting too much? They were comparing two cars of similar price and judging their findings entirely on how quick they could get around a track. Apart from the Litchfield BRZ, there is also the Fensport GT86 which would have made a far better and fairer comparison. People are rightly criticising the video because it was a totally biased piece against the FRS/GT86/BRZ.

yes expecting too much. you can only compare the cars you have. they didnt have the cars you mentioned. its crazy how people can be so quick to criticize and call them out for being biased. a lot of what they say makes sense. the car is fun, but its not fast. if you want, go ahead and take the litchfield brz and that miata and compare them. ill gladly hear what you have to say.

[Boxer486]

@fatoni

So you are supposing that the suspension and chassis tuning by BBR actually either did nothing to improve the Miata's handling over stock or actually hurt it. Sure that's a possibility but is a massive stretch of the imagination to try a defend your point about the 5 seconds. It presumes the stock Miata is just so good that the upgraded suspension had nothing to do w/ the better laptime and possibly hurt it which is pretty silly.

I bring up the stock horsepower precisely we are comparing the Miata to the GT86. Apples to Apples. The Miata got a 100hp boost along w/ whatever torque boost as well. If you were to compare apples to apples as a platform, you would give the GT86 the same exact performance enhancement, otherwise it's apples to oranges. If you want to only give the GT86 70hp, then you have to strip out whatever weight difference exists as well and take off that stupid body kit and lame 18" wheels. Seems pretty obvious if someone wants an accurate comparison and not a biased one that favors their own view.

I don't mind comparing cars, you once again are taking things out of context. I said I'm not CONCERNED about the differences in lap times you point out as the GT86 has already proved faster than the Miata. I also don't buy the picture you try to paint that the fastest Miatas out there are just barely modified street cars. Stock versus stock or fully modified versus fully modified, the GT86 is faster than the Miata around a track, period. That's why I'm not concerned, and why the Miata is not underrated and the 86 overrated as you continue to portray on this forum.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...or_comparison/

This link also shows how a significant power and torque advantage can yield a couple of seconds even on a small track.

The current Miata hasn't been around for 10 years? Oh now you are just parsing words to mitigate a huge aftermarket and user base advantage to defend your precious Miata and inability to deal with facts when they don't agree with you. The Miata has been around since 1989 and the current third gen since 2006. Either 15 years or 8 years does nothing to support your point. It's the same basic inherent platform that has had tons of track time and tuning done to it providing tons of data to build upon. Feel free to argue that 8-15 years of testing and development doesn't matter if you like, good luck with that. You didn't seem to have a problem spouting out that the Miata is the most raced platform in the world. Which generation do you mean? You obviously meant all of them from 1989 onward. How about trying to be consistent with your own arguments rather than trying to have your cake and eat it all the time.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i suspect these cars were compared because they had access to these two cars.

Originally Posted by fatoni

yes expecting too much. you can only compare the cars you have. they didnt have the cars you mentioned.

Why do you say Evo didn't have access to the Litchfield BRZ? They had that exact car on that exact circuit just three months prior. Even did a video review on it. And Litchfield isn't exactly shy about letting UK journalists test their BRZ. It's been tested on numerous occassions by Evo, Top Gear, GT Spirit, and other mags.

It's no secret that Evo's been biased against the Twins for a long time now in their reviews. Some of the arguments they make against them are mind-boggling. You should read their long-term review of the GT86 where they claim the GT86 is impossible to drive on a track when it rains. Literally impossible not to crash in the rain, right Evo? Serial axe murderer, 70's era rear-engine Porsche stuff?

LMAO...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILHg_kW5vMc"]AJ BRZ at Ridge Motorsports Park (Heavy Rain) - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3M_mosJkRs"]FRS passes everyone @ Laguna Seca - YouTube[/ame]

Evo...

[ST185RC]

HEY! FUCK YOU, YOU AND YOU! I'M GOING TO MAKE YOU EAT A PLATE OF HUMAN SHIT!

Am I too late to the forum flame war?

[BlueDubbinTDI]

Holy bejesus the 270hp in that Miata look like a ridiculous amount on fun on a private track!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

@fatoni

So you are supposing that the suspension and chassis tuning by BBR actually either did nothing to improve the Miata's handling over stock or actually hurt it. Sure that's a possibility but is a massive stretch of the imagination to try a defend your point about the 5 seconds. It presumes the stock Miata is just so good that the upgraded suspension had nothing to do w/ the better laptime and possibly hurt it which is pretty silly.

I bring up the stock horsepower precisely we are comparing the Miata to the GT86. Apples to Apples. The Miata got a 100hp boost along w/ whatever torque boost as well. If you were to compare apples to apples as a platform, you would give the GT86 the same exact performance enhancement, otherwise it's apples to oranges. If you want to only give the GT86 70hp, then you have to strip out whatever weight difference exists as well and take off that stupid body kit and lame 18" wheels. Seems pretty obvious if someone wants an accurate comparison and not a biased one that favors their own view.

I don't mind comparing cars, you once again are taking things out of context. I said I'm not CONCERNED about the differences in lap times you point out as the GT86 has already proved faster than the Miata. I also don't buy the picture you try to paint that the fastest Miatas out there are just barely modified street cars. Stock versus stock or fully modified versus fully modified, the GT86 is faster than the Miata around a track, period. That's why I'm not concerned, and why the Miata is not underrated and the 86 overrated as you continue to portray on this forum.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...or_comparison/

This link also shows how a significant power and torque advantage can yield a couple of seconds even on a small track.

The current Miata hasn't been around for 10 years? Oh now you are just parsing words to mitigate a huge aftermarket and user base advantage to defend your precious Miata and inability to deal with facts when they don't agree with you. The Miata has been around since 1989 and the current third gen since 2006. Either 15 years or 8 years does nothing to support your point. It's the same basic inherent platform that has had tons of track time and tuning done to it providing tons of data to build upon. Feel free to argue that 8-15 years of testing and development doesn't matter if you like, good luck with that. You didn't seem to have a problem spouting out that the Miata is the most raced platform in the world. Which generation do you mean? You obviously meant all of them from 1989 onward. How about trying to be consistent with your own arguments rather than trying to have your cake and eat it all the time.

im not saying that the bbr tuning hurt the suspension of the miata. im just saying that its not 5 seconds worth of help. you keep saying that i dont think the mods of the miata help the lap times at all. i dont know where you get that from but im not going to defend things that i didnt even say.

apples to apples comparisons are for simple people. even at its most simple form, things arent fair. adding 100 hp to both cars doesnt affect the cars in the same way so how is that apples to apples? the comparison is as accurate as it gets. that car went faster than the other car. if you want to draw conclusions, speculate or comment in the appropriate comparison threads. i never even brought up miata lap times. i only brought up that all the mods people are saying should make the miata 5+ seconds faster dont even make the gt86 5+ seconds faster on tracks with laptimes twice as long. its a shitty fanboy attitude. yeah, i believe the miata is the most tracked car. that statement is different than what were saying here because its not a comparison dealing with specifics. even if it was, i would venture to say that the na/nb miatas are the most tracked car in the world.

another thing i want to point out is that i dont think the frs is a slower platform than the miata. i never said that. i think if you want fast, you are a fool for buying either since there are cheaper cars that stock v stock or mod for mod will crush either.

you can say im parsing for words but the point is that you made a statement that is false. 8-15 years matters but i want you to realize that it not only matters for aftermarket but also oem. toyota/subaru were able to put in an extra 8-15 years of technology too.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Why do you say Evo didn't have access to the Litchfield BRZ? They had that exact car on that exact circuit just three months prior. Even did a video review on it. And Litchfield isn't exactly shy about letting UK journalists test their BRZ. It's been tested on numerous occassions by Evo, Top Gear, GT Spirit, and other mags.

It's no secret that Evo's been biased against the Twins for a long time now in their reviews. Some of the arguments they make against them are mind-boggling. You should read their long-term review of the GT86 where they claim the GT86 is impossible to drive on a track when it rains. Literally impossible not to crash in the rain, right Evo? Serial axe murderer, 70's era rear-engine Porsche stuff?

LMAO...

Evo...

yeah i guess i stated that in an inappropriate way. to me, it seems that this comparison occured because they had both of these cars at the same time and had to fill their magazine with something.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by fatoni

the comparison is as accurate as it gets. that car went faster than the other car....

....yeah i guess i stated that in an inappropriate way. to me, it seems that this comparison occured because they had both of these cars at the same time and had to fill their magazine with something.

Thanks for some of the clarification, but I think you can see from above it's difficult to follow a consistent theme here.

Maybe you mean precise rather than accurate.

[bunny86]

Originally Posted by fatoni

yes expecting too much. you can only compare the cars you have. they didnt have the cars you mentioned. its crazy how people can be so quick to criticize and call them out for being biased. a lot of what they say makes sense. the car is fun, but its not fast. if you want, go ahead and take the litchfield brz and that miata and compare them. ill gladly hear what you have to say.

Someone already posted the Data;


By the way, for those curious how a FI GT86 would have done, Evo just so happened to have tested the Litchfield BRZ at Blyton Park.

Litchfield BRZ Spec S
- 1:07.5
- 29,477 GBP
- 280 bhp

BBR Miata GT270
- 1:08.9
- 29,995 GBP
- 268 bhp

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

Thanks for some of the clarification, but I think you can see from above it's difficult to follow a consistent theme here.

Maybe you mean precise rather than accurate.

i think the findings were both accurate and precise. the question is how valuable people think the findings are.

Originally Posted by bunny86

Someone already posted the Data;


By the way, for those curious how a FI GT86 would have done, Evo just so happened to have tested the Litchfield BRZ at Blyton Park.

Litchfield BRZ Spec S
- 1:07.5
- 29,477 GBP
- 280 bhp

BBR Miata GT270
- 1:08.9
- 29,995 GBP
- 268 bhp

i have no doubt that there are faster twins than the cars tested. i just doubt they happened to have those cars when the comparison was made.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by fatoni

yeah i guess i stated that in an inappropriate way. to me, it seems that this comparison occured because they had both of these cars at the same time and had to fill their magazine with something.

Yeah it's a possibility, but given Evo's history with the Twins, that seems unlikely to me. One thing you might not appreciate is that Evo actually tested the TRD GT86 a couple of months ago in their magazine and declared it the worst performance bargain on the road (which I agree with, given it's $10,000 for a body-kit, CBE, and wheels/tires... clearly not built for performance). In fact, Evo correctly noted that the only performance upgrade the TRD kit offered was the tires, which is an awful deal for $10k.

Curious then that Evo would ask TRD to re-send this car for a price-limited track comparison against a purpose-built Miata with an intercooled turbo pushing 270hp, adjustable koni dampers, custom rate springs, exedy clutch, wheels, etc. Especially when they had just tested the Litchfield BRZ which was similarly priced to the Miata, also had aftermarket FI and suspension mods, and was actually faster than the BBR Miata at Blyton Park.

That's either bias or stupidity on the part of Evo. Or both honestly.