All-New 2022 Subaru BRZ Makes Global Debut

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Ever driven a 370Z? On road and on track? It's a different experience to a twin. Not better or worse, just different. The Z has far higher limits and you can't really reach them as easily on public streets - too much mechanical grip. The twins on stock tyres have less grip and lower limits, so they can be more 'fun' for some folk thanks to the ease of breaking traction at lower speeds. Different priorities for different buyers.

Have you? Sounds like we didn't drive the same car. This is a base 370z mind you, the one that is comparable in price here.

Was not a fan so I definitely think it's much worse, it just didn't really seem all that inspiring of a car to me, similar to the lower end mustangs from 2015 and down. They just don't feel good to me at all, sluggish, porky, doesn't want to move unless its going straight.

They have power, that's about it, and in the lower trim I was cross shopping, there was a lack of an LSD.

[Cephas]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Much is deleted but there is enough left to get the drift:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98029

Ohhhh, that guy. Part of me is sad I wasn't around yet in the halcyon days of 2015. And part of me is quite glad.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Does your wife look bad because there are models that look better?

Does every car that is not a Ferrari, Porsche or Lamborghini inherently look bad too?

I like the sound of my car. I know the Subie or Porsche fanboys would argue the contrary.

You are entitled to your subjective opinion of course.

Nope. My wife’s a rocket.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

Have you?

I own one. So yeah.

Sounds like we didn't drive the same car. This is a base 370z mind you, the one that is comparable in price here.

We only have two models here, a normal Z equivalent to your top sport tech trim, and the Nismo. So our base Z comes with everything, including VLSD, 19”s, uprated brakes etc. And that is only about AU$5k more than the top trims of the 86/BRZ.

They just don't feel good to me at all, sluggish, porky, doesn't want to move unless its going straight.

That’s why I asked not only if you’ve driven it, but driven it on track (I have). Because the limits are higher, because they have more mechanical grip than a twin with it’s skinny stock tyres (245+275s vs 215s), you need to be going a lot faster to feel the limits of traction. That can make a car feel a bit boring at normal speeds on public roads.

They have power, that's about it, and in the lower trim I was cross shopping, there was a lack of an LSD.

The VLSD definitely helps, but it isn’t as good as the Torsen LSD in the twins. Most folks turning them into serious track or drift cars put a mechanical LSD in them. That, combined with an uprated oil cooler, track rubber, BB kit and coilovers is all you need for an extremely capable track car. If they were truly such dogs, they (and older 350s) wouldn’t be so popular as dedicated track build cars.

I just think it’s a popular car to rag on because people want to feel better about the twins, and because Chris Harris doesn’t like them (he also doesn’t like MX-5s either though so his opinion is hardly the last word, plus his expectations about car feel have been set by supercars).

In any case, you don’t have to like them. As someone who has owned both an 86 and a 370Z, I appreciate them both, including their differences.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by wbradley

I watched a Chris Harris review of the 370z

So did I, but rather than just taking his word for it, I went to the trouble of driving and eventually owning both cars. I’m likely to have put 1,000s of more km on both cars, in all kinds of weather and road conditions than Harris has.

and he said it's great pushing it up to 8/10 but feels dangerous past that.

I suspect the Z he tested lacked the VLSD, bigger brakes and wider rubber of the higher trims. What he also didn’t make clear is that the Z’s grip and limits are so much higher than the twins that 8/10ths in a Z is like 11/10ths in a twin in terms of how fast you are going by then and the cornering g you are pulling. Motor Trend tested the 370Z at 1.0 lateral g on the skid pad vs 0.9 g for the twins. IOW, by the time a Z is feeling dangerous and is nearing its limits, the twin would have already lost traction and careened off the road. So 8/10ths in a twin is like only 6/10ths in a 370Z. Harris did not make this clear, instead he made out that the Z was ‘falling to pieces’ at comparable cornering speeds to the 86, which is simply not true.

In contrast the twins feel controllable completely rather than having that 20% danger zone.

I understand what he means. The stock Z has higher grip limits than the stock 86 which will break traction sooner, at lower g (which makes it an objectively slower car overall, not only in a straight line but in corners too) but the 86 will break away in a more progressive, predictable and thus controllable way, where a Z can experience snap oversteer, going from lots of grip to a more sudden loss of traction. That can catch you out, and makes the twins a better car for newer drivers to explore their limits in. The Z is better suited to more experienced drivers who can predict loss of traction and know how to deal with it.

The ability to safely slide the car around corners, even with gripper tires, really differentiates the two cars.

Have you driven a 370Z on track? Or even on some twisty roads? Don’t just take Harris’ word for things. The man is both a much better driver than most of us, pushes cars to limits most of us will never approach, and has had his expectations and taste in cars set through decades of testing exotic machinery.

I suspect you are right though, the reason he loves the 86 so much is it gives him a hypercar light chassis that he enjoys drifting at low speeds because of the twin’s relatively low grip levels on stock tyres. He dislikes the Z because despite having higher limits, having more grip, faster corner speeds and more capability, it doesn’t break away as progressively in stock form.

I disagree about drifting a twin on grippy tyres though. When you put wider, sticky compound track spec tyres on the twins, the easy driftability disappears, the relatively low power of the FA20 can make it hard to slide. Cornering grip and speeds increase, of course, but there goes a bit of the twin’s fun factor, low speed skids.

But in any case, not everything is about drifting. If you are chasing track times you want the car with higher grip, higher cornering g, and of course, more power. Drifting makes track times worse. And in daily driving, you really shouldn’t be drifting on public roads... it is irresponsible although most of us are guilty of it.

Plus, a sports car in the real world, owned by real people with real needs (rather than car reviewers who never have to own or daily the cars they drift around in for video) has to perform lots of duties, from commuting to touring, overtaking, cruising etc. The Z excels at all of these. Not that the twins are bad, but they are not as comfortable, not as torquey, not as refined.

What irks me is dismissive statements like ‘Drives like a dog’ fails to cover any of these nuances and contexts, or understand different use cases. I would suggest people just need to understand what their priorities, needs and desires are in a car. Because different buyers prioritise differently. The fact I don’t want a heavy ass 800HP Hellcat Redeye doesn’t mean they are dogs - they are perfect for certain buyers, including those who like to go to the drag strip. Horses for courses.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Red-86

I own one. So yeah.



We only have two models here, a normal Z equivalent to your top sport tech trim, and the Nismo. So our base Z comes with everything, including VLSD, 19”s, uprated brakes etc. And that is only about AU$5k more than the top trims of the 86/BRZ.



That’s why I asked not only if you’ve driven it, but driven it on track (I have). Because the limits are higher, because they have more mechanical grip than a twin with it’s skinny stock tyres (245+275s vs 215s), you need to be going a lot faster to feel the limits of traction. That can make a car feel a bit boring at normal speeds on public roads.



The VLSD definitely helps, but it isn’t as good as the Torsen LSD in the twins. Most folks turning them into serious track or drift cars put a mechanical LSD in them. That, combined with an uprated oil cooler, track rubber, BB kit and coilovers is all you need for an extremely capable track car. If they were truly such dogs, they (and older 350s) wouldn’t be so popular as dedicated track build cars.

I just think it’s a popular car to rag on because people want to feel better about the twins, and because Chris Harris doesn’t like them (he also doesn’t like MX-5s either though so his opinion is hardly the last word, plus his expectations about car feel have been set by supercars).

In any case, you don’t have to like them. As someone who has owned both an 86 and a 370Z, I appreciate them both, including their differences.

I totally understand your position and opinion on the 370z and respect it, but on the other hand, if I was to solely buy a car of what it would fully be capable of and not for the stock+ performance as a daily, I don't think I would've even gone with an 86.

I do track the cars I own, but I never would intend for it to be a serious track built car as I don't have the flexibility of doing that yet in my current stage of life, so the one car I own needs to be reliable, drivable in winter, and the performance out of the box is very important to me as is the $$$ required to achieve such performance.

So I'll stand by what I said, but clear it up for you, the base (2016/17) Canadian 370z drives like dog.

Note: Chris doesn't much care for the new CTR and I now own one, so I have no need to feel better about the twins and their short comings.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

So I'll stand by what I said, but clear it up for you, the base (2016/17) Canadian 370z drives like dog.

Since we don’t get the stripped out base spec cars here, I’ll never know what they are like. But anyway, clearly it wasn’t the car for your needs and preferences.

Note: Chris doesn't much care for the new CTR and I now own one, so I have no need to feel better about the twins and their short comings.

He’s a funny one. I like Harris’s segments, and I think his old /Drive and Chris Harris on Cars videos were amazingly shot at a time when the average YT car videos, even from the big channels, were amateurish trash. We can thank his amazing camera guy Neil Carey for much of that.

But Harris has some odd and strong opinions. He bags both the MX-5 and 370Z, two of the best budget sports cars available for the hoi polloi. As you say, he doesn’t care for the incredibly capable CTR, nor for the new Supra. It’s very hard for him to give praise to any affordable sports cars I think. 20 odd years of driving Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, McLarens etc may have left him a little jaded. He seems to seek a very particular driving experience and connection with a car, and forms very strong opinions based on that alone, with little or no reference to affordability, reliability, comfort, daily drivability etc. When you are a famous car reviewer who gets sent exotic cars to drive all the time, and when you benchmark for a daily sports car is a 911 GT3 Touring, all the other regular car ownership considerations don’t really matter as much as ‘how fun is it to drift at 10/10ths’.

[wbradley]

It's funny, there's even reviews saying the Nismo Z is a dinosaur. I thought it was still up there compared to competitors.

Anyway, the VQ isnt rev happy enough for me, and the seating position is too high. That's 2 strikes.
Then there's the exterior

Too bad, as a base to modify a stripped Z is a lot of car and if you're into 90's styling it has an interesting interior, but with nowhere near the character of the twins.
As a company, I far prefer to deal with Toyota or Subaru so it worked out for me. Only company I'd avoid more than Nissan, maker of the cheapest possible small cars and CUVs, is Mazda, but that's personal.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by wbradley

It's funny, there's even reviews saying the Nismo Z is a dinosaur. I thought it was still up there compared to competitors.

It’s still a capable car, but is too expensive for what you get, especially in the US given the competition there.

Anyway, the VQ isnt rev happy enough for me,

Same redline as the twins @7,500 and makes peak power at 7,000. It revs there smoothly enough IMO. Some people don’t like the engine note, but I do. Subjective.

and the seating position is too high.

Twins definitely have the better and more natural seating position. The Z has this weird thing where the roof height is only an inch or so taller than the twins, but the interior floor is really high and the seats don’t lower enough, so the actual space feels narrower. To get my eye level similar height from the road to to my 86 I can recline my seat right back, which results in an ‘Italian driving position’ with arms stretched out since there is no reach adjustment in the steering wheel. So yeah, definitely give that one to the twins.

Then there's the exterior

Completely subjective. I like both of them, but think the Z has the edge. It’s a timeless sports car design that has aged well IMO.

Only company I'd avoid more than Nissan, maker of the cheapest possible small cars and CUVs, is Mazda, but that's personal.

Why? Mazda are hugely popular in Australia and the MX-5 is brilliant.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Since we don’t get the stripped out base spec cars here, I’ll never know what they are like. But anyway, clearly it wasn’t the car for your needs and preferences.



He’s a funny one. I like Harris’s segments, and I think his old /Drive and Chris Harris on Cars videos were amazingly shot at a time when the average YT car videos, even from the big channels, were amateurish trash. We can thank his amazing camera guy Neil Carey for much of that.

But Harris has some odd and strong opinions. He bags both the MX-5 and 370Z, two of the best budget sports cars available for the hoi polloi. As you say, he doesn’t care for the incredibly capable CTR, nor for the new Supra. It’s very hard for him to give praise to any affordable sports cars I think. 20 odd years of driving Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, McLarens etc may have left him a little jaded. He seems to seek a very particular driving experience and connection with a car, and forms very strong opinions based on that alone, with little or no reference to affordability, reliability, comfort, daily drivability etc. When you are a famous car reviewer who gets sent exotic cars to drive all the time, and when you benchmark for a daily sports car is a 911 GT3 Touring, all the other regular car ownership considerations don’t really matter as much as ‘how fun is it to drift at 10/10ths’.

The cinematography for that channel was definitely beyond it's time on YouTube. I still go back to some of his old videos from time to time, one of my favourites being the 918/P1/FLF hour long video.

The MX5 is a funny car no doubt, stock i don't think I could really be happy with it as the body roll is immense despite what it is capable of stock. When you start modding the MX5 though, that's where I would then be considering one, the MX5 for me has a strong chance of being a second car down the road, depending on what the used market looks like... a car I don't have to worry about crashing into the track wall so I can keep pushing hard.

The CTR and Supra are also funny. Obviously I like the CTR as I own one, but it definitely does feel like a bigger car than any other Civic generation I've driven. That aside, the numerous praise for the car isn't misplaced, so I would definitely agree he has become jaded over the years.

The Supra, I actually don't like. It feels odd to me, the tail end, which I think there is actually something on it that pro drivers have been even complaining about.. it felt off. I had the opportunity to drive it on track with almost no traffic for a few laps, and had this strange sensation from the rear end making me feel less confident in it, kind of bouncy or airy rear end. But alas, I didn't get to push it as much as I wanted to, I was with an instructor and I think once he realized the pace I was approaching he said to let off as we are not here to set lap times !

Anyway, I will definitely agree he's gotten a bit of an unreasonable taste at times, but he's probably the best we have right now, other than some of the more unknown pro drivers out there that also happen to have a YouTube channel, Misha comes to mind. (He's still pretty well known though, I just don't think on the western side of the world)

[T.Q.]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Yeah. Could look better, but doesn't look awful. Don't like the interior, but could probably get used to the looks of this whole car some day. Don't think I can ever say it looks better than gen1, but I'm sure some day I'll say gen2 is a good looking car. But I like the specs so far. Honestly, the power and torque bump are great IMO, probably a good bit better than my header and dyno tune, which feels plenty fun. Better tires for in stock form. Better rigidity, excited to learn more about how the car feels rocking side to side. Impressed with the manual weight, barely up from gen1. So far.. I'm keeping my mouth shut about looks as it doesn't thrill me at all, but I'm happy with specs. Looking forward to learning more about what it's capable of vs gen1.

Looks good, yes, I'm glad they preserved that 86/brz DNA. Definitely wont confuse it with anything else on the road. Rear part and tail lights look a bit strange though. And yes, I think 1st gen still looks a bit better, sharper

[brillo]

Has anyone photoshopped some basic color variations like red, dark grey and yellow?

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by brillo

Has anyone photoshopped some basic color variations like red, dark grey and yellow?

Just look at some different colour Ford Escapes.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Just look at some different colour Ford Escapes.

I just took a look at the front of the 2020 Escape and had a chuckle. Actually the headlights aren't even close and the hood where it meets the fender is very different. The shape of the front grille and the little black spoiler thingie are dead on though. I would never have caught that. I guess there will be a Mercury version in the US with a scowl to duplicate the Toyota version? Or maybe Lincoln MKX.