follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > FT86CLUB Shared Forum > FR-S / BRZ vs....

FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-27-2018, 10:07 PM   #85
Turbowned
Senior Member
 
Turbowned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: 2017 Subaru BRZ Perf Pack 6MT
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 5,048
Thanks: 1,949
Thanked 1,945 Times in 1,150 Posts
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
That was indeed my point. It looks exotic, it sounds exotic (carbon!) but numbers say the opposite. If it was much much lighter than a Miata then things would be different, but fact is that it is heavier. Certain engineering decisions were entirely wrong here. Maybe not the carbon cockpit, but certainly something ...

I also don't see any reason with the +30hp on the revised Mazda to pay twice for the 4C.
2,465 is very light; is it not the lightest current production sports car? My 1989 MR2 weighed about that much and that was 30 years ago when cars weren't bogged down by hundreds of pounds in safety equipment and wore 14" wheels/tires. Sure it didn't have a carbon tub; it had tinny sheetmetal that rotted out everywhere instead.

Part of the fun of the 4C is its exclusivity. If you buy a MX-5 you're not making a bad choice by any means, but you'll see cars just like yours every day. I like driving something less common so it appeals to me. Especially lately when I see a poorly modified FR-S/BRZ drive by (of which there are several), it makes me wish I could jump into something else so as not to be associated with those cars.

For those who haven't driven one, you've got to. It's a hoot! I would not want to daily drive it, although some masochists do. Been there done that with enough cars. The engine could really use another thousand revs to feel more racecar-like (my 4.2L V8 RS6 revved to 6,500 rpm for chrissake! Interestingly, both cars have the same 0-60 times) but it gives you a great shove and the sounds are a lot of fun.

Certainly, another car in the segment to consider heavily is the Cayman S. I personally never cared for the styling of them and would just as soon buy an older 911 in the same price bracket before I'd get a Cayman, but they are excellent cars to drive (wheeled a 2015 S PDK around Thompson Motor Speedway for a half dozen laps or so) and more well-rounded.
__________________

Current: 2005 Porsche 911 Carrera S 6MT
Previous: 2 BRZ's, 997 C2S, C5 RS6, C4 S6, B8 S4, GDB STi, S30 240Z, FC3S RX-7 TII, AW11/SW20 MR2, E30 318is/325i, etc.
Turbowned is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Turbowned For This Useful Post:
Braces (08-28-2018)
Old 08-27-2018, 11:03 PM   #86
Yoshoobaroo
TRACKBREAD
 
Yoshoobaroo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Drives: 2013 BRZ
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,929
Thanks: 2,660
Thanked 4,024 Times in 1,895 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbowned View Post
2,465 is very light; is it not the lightest current production sports car?
The Miata is 133 lbs lighter.
The 220hp Elise is 410 lbs lighter.
Neither of them need a carbon tub to get lower than the 4C, both cheaper (the Elise albeit barely) too.

The 4C is an excersise in superatives for the sake of spec sheet bragging. Which is fine seeing the target market Fiat was going for with the car, but the whole isn't more than the sum of its parts, and as an engineer I cannot like it because of the sheer inadequacy of it's design optimization. At its size, cost, and level of spartan-ness it should beat the Elise handily. Instead a small English company shows all the might of the fiat group what they can build for 58grand is significantly faster than the Italians can do for 63k. Hell even the 190 HP Elise gets damn close and is 15 grand cheaper than the Alfa. Yes the Alfa is fast and it's like an assault on your senses on the track, but so is everything else with close to those power/weight and grip/weight ratios.

The 4C sounds amazing on paper, but once you dig deeper you realize that's all it was meant to do. It's let down by more weight than it should be carrying, a crap gearbox, and an engine that's not very well suited for a sports car. FCA has shown plenty of times that since Ferrari left they kinda phone in the engineering. Like how they bragged they desiged the Giulia in 2.5 years. That's not a good thing. That means you rushed it and you'll pay for that later when it proves to be unreliable. Oh wait. That's exactly what happened.
Yoshoobaroo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Yoshoobaroo For This Useful Post:
nikitopo (08-28-2018), Tristor (08-28-2018)
Old 08-28-2018, 01:43 AM   #87
Turbowned
Senior Member
 
Turbowned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: 2017 Subaru BRZ Perf Pack 6MT
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 5,048
Thanks: 1,949
Thanked 1,945 Times in 1,150 Posts
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
The Miata is 133 lbs lighter.
The 220hp Elise is 410 lbs lighter.
Neither of them need a carbon tub to get lower than the 4C, both cheaper (the Elise albeit barely) too.

The 4C is an excersise in superatives for the sake of spec sheet bragging. Which is fine seeing the target market Fiat was going for with the car, but the whole isn't more than the sum of its parts, and as an engineer I cannot like it because of the sheer inadequacy of it's design optimization. At its size, cost, and level of spartan-ness it should beat the Elise handily. Instead a small English company shows all the might of the fiat group what they can build for 58grand is significantly faster than the Italians can do for 63k. Hell even the 190 HP Elise gets damn close and is 15 grand cheaper than the Alfa. Yes the Alfa is fast and it's like an assault on your senses on the track, but so is everything else with close to those power/weight and grip/weight ratios.


The 4C sounds amazing on paper, but once you dig deeper you realize that's all it was meant to do. It's let down by more weight than it should be carrying, a crap gearbox, and an engine that's not very well suited for a sports car. FCA has shown plenty of times that since Ferrari left they kinda phone in the engineering. Like how they bragged they desiged the Giulia in 2.5 years. That's not a good thing. That means you rushed it and you'll pay for that later when it proves to be unreliable. Oh wait. That's exactly what happened.
I did not realize they cut that much weight from the ND MX-5 vs the NC. I stand corrected. I wish they didn't wait til after I bought my BRZ to add 30hp, or I might well be driving an MX-5 by now. Too late!

The Elise hasn't been on sale in the US since 2011, and *if* you can find an S or S 240 they are likely to cost more than a used 4C (no doubt a testament to their desirability, but still out of my budget). I drove the standard Elise and at the time it didn't feel monumentally faster than my 170hp 20v 4AG-swapped MR2. The 2ZZ is such a peaky engine; I didn't really enjoy it (tried a Matrix XR-S with the same engine, same result), though I'm sure it would be adequate at the track if you stay in the powerband. I also really don't fit in an Elise. My line of sight is pretty much parallel with the top of the windshield. So there's that.
__________________

Current: 2005 Porsche 911 Carrera S 6MT
Previous: 2 BRZ's, 997 C2S, C5 RS6, C4 S6, B8 S4, GDB STi, S30 240Z, FC3S RX-7 TII, AW11/SW20 MR2, E30 318is/325i, etc.
Turbowned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 06:41 AM   #88
nikitopo
Senior Member
 
nikitopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: '15 BRZ RA
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,787
Thanks: 2,416
Thanked 1,944 Times in 1,261 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbowned View Post
2,465 is very light; is it not the lightest current production sports car?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbowned View Post
I did not realize they cut that much weight from the ND MX-5 vs the NC. I stand corrected.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbowned View Post
Part of the fun of the 4C is its exclusivity. If you buy a MX-5 you're not making a bad choice by any means, but you'll see cars just like yours every day. I like driving something less common so it appeals to me. Especially lately when I see a poorly modified FR-S/BRZ drive by (of which there are several), it makes me wish I could jump into something else so as not to be associated with those cars.
I agree that the 4C is quite exclusive. I live in Munich Germany and the last 5 years I've seen only one 4C and maybe three or four FR-S/BRZ's. Our cars are not so common too. The MX-5's are much more common.

Why do you feel bad if other people are modifying their car? First of all, I don't think the majority of FS-S/BRZ's are modified. Maybe this forum gives a wrong perception of reality. Additionally, there is the option to install TRD or STI parts and stay within the factory specifications. Of course, there will always be exceptions of the rule and we'll always have some poorly modified or even not poorly modified but certainly outside of the factory specs and quality standards.
nikitopo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to nikitopo For This Useful Post:
Tcoat (08-28-2018)
Old 08-28-2018, 10:03 AM   #89
bfrank1972
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S Argento
Location: Westport,CT
Posts: 1,855
Thanks: 517
Thanked 1,039 Times in 616 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Regarding weight, 4C chassis is heavier than the Miata and Elise, but also a good bit stiffer.

There are people who like it, and people who don't. People who get it, people who value other things. It's all good - most of this 4C debate is subjective and headed WAY off topic.
bfrank1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 11:00 AM   #90
funwheeldrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Drives: BANNED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH
Location: MODS ARE ON A POWER TRIP
Posts: 3,447
Thanks: 7,830
Thanked 3,022 Times in 1,409 Posts
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrank1972 View Post
Regarding weight, 4C chassis is heavier than the Miata and Elise, but also a good bit stiffer.
Would you mind posting the torsional rigidity numbers for the ND/Elise/4C? I can't find the data.
funwheeldrive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 11:34 AM   #91
bfrank1972
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S Argento
Location: Westport,CT
Posts: 1,855
Thanks: 517
Thanked 1,039 Times in 616 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
Would you mind posting the torsional rigidity numbers for the ND/Elise/4C? I can't find the data.
Sure:

Lotus Elise ranges from 10k-11k nm/degree
Miata NC: 8800 nm/dgree
Miata NA & NB: 6000 nm/degree
Alfa 4C: 14,500 nm/degree

And you know what, I confused NC with the latest model (ND). Couldn't find the rigidity numbers on that either, apologize for that. Probably better than 8800, but kind of doubt they've reached the 4C's numbers (I could be wrong though). From various reading the NC was a big jump in rigidity for the Miatas, the ND less so (over the NC), but that's all anecdotal and take my word with a grain of salt
bfrank1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to bfrank1972 For This Useful Post:
funwheeldrive (08-28-2018), Yoshoobaroo (08-28-2018)
Old 08-28-2018, 11:47 AM   #92
amcp1
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Drives: frs
Location: mo
Posts: 77
Thanks: 2
Thanked 39 Times in 25 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
What is the torsional rigidity of the twin? I cant find a number.
amcp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to amcp1 For This Useful Post:
funwheeldrive (08-28-2018), nikitopo (08-28-2018), SuperTom (08-28-2018)
Old 08-28-2018, 12:12 PM   #93
funwheeldrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Drives: BANNED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH
Location: MODS ARE ON A POWER TRIP
Posts: 3,447
Thanks: 7,830
Thanked 3,022 Times in 1,409 Posts
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrank1972 View Post
Sure:

Lotus Elise ranges from 10k-11k nm/degree
Miata NC: 8800 nm/dgree
Miata NA & NB: 6000 nm/degree
Alfa 4C: 14,500 nm/degree

And you know what, I confused NC with the latest model (ND). Couldn't find the rigidity numbers on that either, apologize for that. Probably better than 8800, but kind of doubt they've reached the 4C's numbers (I could be wrong though). From various reading the NC was a big jump in rigidity for the Miatas, the ND less so (over the NC), but that's all anecdotal and take my word with a grain of salt
Awesome thank you for this. For some reason I find rigidity data is sometimes hard to find
funwheeldrive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 12:33 PM   #94
Yoshoobaroo
TRACKBREAD
 
Yoshoobaroo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Drives: 2013 BRZ
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,929
Thanks: 2,660
Thanked 4,024 Times in 1,895 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by amcp1 View Post
What is the torsional rigidity of the twin? I cant find a number.


22000 NM/degree from what I can find.
Yoshoobaroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 12:52 PM   #95
funwheeldrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Drives: BANNED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH
Location: MODS ARE ON A POWER TRIP
Posts: 3,447
Thanks: 7,830
Thanked 3,022 Times in 1,409 Posts
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
22000 NM/degree from what I can find.
That seems usually high when compared to the other cars?
funwheeldrive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 01:40 PM   #96
bfrank1972
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S Argento
Location: Westport,CT
Posts: 1,855
Thanks: 517
Thanked 1,039 Times in 616 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Coupe #'s are a lot higher, those numbers are all for the open top versions
bfrank1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to bfrank1972 For This Useful Post:
funwheeldrive (08-28-2018)
Old 08-28-2018, 01:49 PM   #97
Yoshoobaroo
TRACKBREAD
 
Yoshoobaroo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Drives: 2013 BRZ
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,929
Thanks: 2,660
Thanked 4,024 Times in 1,895 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
That seems usually high when compared to the other cars?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrank1972 View Post
Coupe #'s are a lot higher, those numbers are all for the open top versions


Yup, coupes are inherently much stiffer.

The RX8 is 30000nm/degree, and that uses the same platform as the NC Miata, which didn't even hit 10000nm/degree
Yoshoobaroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 02:27 PM   #98
funwheeldrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Drives: BANNED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH
Location: MODS ARE ON A POWER TRIP
Posts: 3,447
Thanks: 7,830
Thanked 3,022 Times in 1,409 Posts
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrank1972 View Post
Coupe #'s are a lot higher, those numbers are all for the open top versions
Interesting, I wonder how stiff the 4C coupe is. Probably stiffer than 30,000 if that's what the RX8 is at.
funwheeldrive is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Autocar: Toyota GT86 vs Porsche Cayman Boxer-4 FR-S / BRZ vs.... 77 03-29-2015 05:40 PM
Scion FRS Driving Dynamics VS Porsche Cayman 2082FRS Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 5 01-09-2014 02:01 PM
Toyota GT86 / Scion FR-S v Nissan 370Z v Used Porsche Cayman mwjcyber FR-S / BRZ vs.... 2 12-08-2013 05:53 PM
Car and Driver: Porsche Cayman S vs. Scion FRS wrxgoose FR-S / BRZ vs.... 30 09-25-2012 03:50 PM
FRS/brz VS Porsche Cayman jurjurson FR-S / BRZ vs.... 22 08-15-2012 04:14 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.