Car and Driver is F-ing Stupid

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Well, they can get over it. In the absence of any sort of top tier halo car with the exception of the very rare LFA, neither of those brands had much of anything that was going to get people excited and bring them into showrooms so that the salesmen can try and sell them a more practical option. This went on for quite a while until the twins came along. Even if they're a sales bomb, the twins are worth it just for that. By the way, both Corvette and 911 not only accomplish this same task but they are also both PROFITABLE programs, and make a ton of money racing.

Oh they absolutely recognize the need to have a true sporting offering for the sake of brand image. Toyota and Subaru Corporate have both openly stated that the FT86 program hit their sales targets and that it was a success (more so for Toyota than Subaru, since they already have the WRX STi). I suspect that the FT86 will continue to evolve, get softer and go more up market like Z cars in the past.

What I was pointing out though is the sheer inertia that FT86 enthusiasts are working against when they go on and on about a hotter version.

[KoolBRZ]

I'm not one to suffer much from CDS, (Can't Do Sh*t). So I immediately took my SM, (smoothed map) Requested Torque B map, and started adding more throttle in the low end, and taking away some throttle in the higher end. Here are pics of the OTS map, the SM map, and the BRUT4S, (Brute Force) map I've ended up with. As you can see from the pics, the BRUT4S map is quite different than the OTS map. The comparisons are equally revealing. The SM map is only slightly different than the OTS map, while the BRUT4S map is over a hundred points higher at 10% throttle! Now it drives like a sports car should.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

I'm not one to suffer much from CDS, (Can't Do Sh*t). So I immediately took my SM, (smoothed map) Requested Torque B map, and started adding more throttle in the low end, and taking away some throttle in the higher end. Here are pics of the OTS map, the SM map, and the BRUT4S, (Brute Force) map I've ended up with. As you can see from the pics, the BRUT4S map is quite different than the OTS map. The comparisons are equally revealing. The SM map is only slightly different than the OTS map, while the BRUT4S map is over a hundred points higher at 10% throttle! Now it drives like a sports car should.

Nobody is disputing that the car performance can be made "better" with a simple tune. That has been done 1,000s of times. The dispute is that the manufacturer may not be able to do it for a list of reasons that could fill a book. You and other tuners are not shackled by those restrictions and can do whatever you wish. They can not. It is not as simple as saying "I figured this out and they should do it this way".

[KoolBRZ]

Bullsh**. The OEM is already using a different FD. I'm here to say that everyone that says this car has no low end torque is wrong. The OEM has set it up that way. My opinion is that they are wrong to do so. A Corolla has more low end torque than this car. They can do the same thing with this car as they've done with the Corolla.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Bullsh**. The OEM is already using a different FD. I'm here to say that everyone that says this car has no low end torque is wrong. The OEM has set it up that way. My opinion is that they are wrong to do so. A Corolla has more low end torque than this car. They can do the same thing with this car as they've done with the Corolla.

You are speaking WAY out of your tax bracket once again.

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

You are speaking WAY out of your tax bracket once again.

You are certainly entitled to "your opinion". Do you have anything to back that up? Because I actually back up "my opinion" with real pics of real tables, that I have really driven with in my real car.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

You are certainly entitled to "your opinion". Do you have anything to back that up? Because I actually back up "my opinion" with real pics of real tables, that I have really driven with in my real car.

Yeah, colorful. I have plenty to back it up. I didn't post for your benefit. I posted for everyone else that may be seduced by your pretty charts.

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nobody is disputing that the car performance can be made "better" with a simple tune. That has been done 1,000s of times. The dispute is that the manufacturer may not be able to do it for a list of reasons that could fill a book. You and other tuners are not shackled by those restrictions and can do whatever you wish. They can not. It is not as simple as saying "I figured this out and they should do it this way".

If you knew how a throttle works, you would know that changing the DBW map has nothing to do with passing emissions requirements. The throttle simply controls the air that is let into the engine. The fuel is actually managed by the ECU in response to the airflow through the engine, which can be affected by rpm, intake, and exhaust restrictions. Not only can the OEM do this, the OEM is actively doing this with the less powerful, economical models. That's why I mentioned the Corolla, which has been drive by wire since at least 2010.

I've mentioned both Final Drive and drive-by-wire specifically because neither mod changes the actual amount of horsepower the car puts down, but instead, each mod increases the power felt by the driver. Now, what is the most common complaint buyers and reviewers have about this car? That it doesn't have enough power. Not only are these two changes doable by the OEM, but they are already being done by the OEM. It is "my opinion" that they just aren't taking it far enough.

[Ultramaroon]

Holy shit. Wow. Did you actually read the post you quoted? "list of reasons that could fill a book."

I'll up the ante and correct Tcoat. Should read "list of reasons that fill a book."

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Wow, the Getrag fits and people are trying to say they couldn't fit a stout enough transmission from the factory?

Yep. The main issue is that Aisin really doesn't have a better manual trans to throw in there. The 6 speed we have apparently shares a lot with the 6 speed in the Miata and the S2000. All the higher powered Toyota cars run Aisin autos that can take the abuse. I'm sure Getrag has stuff that would work as they supply for Dodge's SRT line, but I don't know if Toyota works with them anymore.

Originally Posted by Yardjass

On the rare occasion that I end up in a Nissan dealership ordering parts, they always try and get me to trade mine in. I just laugh at them. My car is a relic from a time when Nissan actually made good cars and wasn't lazy, and actually updated their platforms more often than once a decade.

I'll be honest and say I've never been a real Nissan fanboy, but I did respect them. I've lost a lot of that respect over the years because they seem to be going the path of Mitsubishi. Aggressive styling in boring cars just doesn't add up, not to mention it being considered "normal" for a new car to burn oil...

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Even the GT-R isn't something I'd own. No manual, no deal. Plus it is getting to the point where it needs a major overhaul and of course, they're not doing it.

GTR is cool, but the new one is just so damn HUGE. It's as big as a damn Charger FFS. Nothing sleek or sexy about it. Like I said, going the path of Mitsubishi

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I don't think it is outrageous that people are yearning for a more performance oriented 86. Many enthusiast cars past/present have more than one option when it comes to power delivery. Sure, it would mean increasing the overall cost of the car, but if you limited production I'm sure they would all sell in a heartbeat.


Focus/ Focus ST/ Focus RS
Miata 1.5L/ Miata 2.0/ Mazdaspeed Miata???
Civic/ Civic SI / Civic Type R
300zx / 300zx TT
Mustang GT / Mustang GT350
WRX / WRX STi
Golf / GTi / Golf R
Corvette / z06


There is nothing wrong, or ridiculous with wanting more options from the factory. The Performance Package is a step in the right direction, but I think the BRZ deserves a STi model, and Subaru will make a big mistake if they don't decide to make one.

FFS this again.

Focus sells like hotcakes.
Mazdaspeed Miata was killed.
Civic sells like hotcakes.
300ZX was a halo car and the height of the Japanese sports cars.
Mustang sells like hot cakes.
STI is a halo car.
Golf sells like hot cakes.
Corvette is a halo car.

The twins are a low volume mid range car. The money simply isn't there and it can't compete with the higher range or you affect brand image.

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

The 2017 MT already comes with a 4.30 FD, instead of a 4.10. That had to cost them a bit. The DBW throttle mapping can be done for FREE. Neither throttle mapping, nor changing the FD would affect the emissions of the vehicle, only the mpg, so what requirements are you blabbing about? The only idiot I see here is you Tcoat. You totally missed the point I was making. That point is that this engine CAN make more power below 3000 rpms, should make more power below 3k, and that having more power in the low-end would make the whole car seem more powerful to buyers and reviewers.

DBW mapping is done a specific way for MANY reasons. Keep in mind that traditional cable setups use a cam and not a simple wheel to make the throttle more progressive. Also keep in mind that full throttle simply bypasses all that crap...

In essense you're do the inverse of putting a piece of wood under the gas pedal.

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Isn't using the "sport" button just re-mapping the throttle? Changing the throttle map isn't going to make it any harder to pass emissions. It's simply changing the multiplier between the pedal, and the throttle plate. It's no different then stepping down further on the pedal. It just makes the car seem more powerful because the pedal doesn't have to be pressed as far. Ecutek tuners like Circuit Motorsports have been re-mapping the throttle for years. I've heard from so-called experts, saying these engines have no low-end torque without super or turbo-charging them. I'm here to say that 10 more HP below 3k rpms makes a car a lot more fun to drive in stop and go traffic. After all, who wants to be left behind by a minivan just because you didn't down-shift when you first saw them accelerate.

Sport button turns off traction control so the throttle won't be affected if wheel spin is detected. It doesn't remap the DBW tables IIRC.

Originally Posted by krayzie

I wonder how much does nostalgia of manufacturers' past success play a role. Everybody will always tend to think that the past products were much better, great times. Why they could do it before and not now? Then people argue to no end.

I see this everywhere not just car forums but forums of other products. It seems to be the general trend these days.

Right and wrong. Mileage wise and maintenance wise, people are simply out of their mind if they think we've gone backward. Cosmetic and material issues (especially paint) I can agree on. Lot of cars feel like they're made of cheap plastic, and modern paint simply isn't as tough as old stuff was (environmental factors of course).

Originally Posted by krayzie

BTW the general trend of car makers going to small displacement Turbos isn't really because they want to give you better low end below 3000rpm, it's really because they need some trick to pass stringent emission standards.

Most of the time it's to replace an aging and crappy V6. I love how some magazine (think it was consumer reports) pitted the normal 4 cylinder vs the turbo 4 cylinder and showed the turbos to get worse gas mileage and worse emissions. Well, NO SHIT, compare them to the replace V6 you numbnuts.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Cars can be very subject to this. The phrase "they don't make them like they used to" is bantered about a lot. They in fact don't make them like that anymore and that is a good thing if you consider such things as being alive or able to walk important to you.
There is also false nostalgia that comes with pop culture. There are millions of people that think some cars are the greatest ever made since they played them on games or saw them in movies. They may have never seen one in real life much less drove one but damnit that is the bestest car ever built and don't try to tell them otherwise.

Yep. I will say a lot of old cars looked better, but of course if you were to hit a pedestrian you'd impale them. Plus chrome is toxic

Originally Posted by unhappymeal

There's nothing at all wrong with choice, but I think most of the forum goers do not appreciate just how hard a sell this car is internally at Toyota/Subaru Corporate and their dealership networks.

I did a one-year stint as a Direct Marketing consultant for Toyota/Scion/Lexus Canada when I finished my Masters degree and boy did they hate the FR-S. They knew the customer base for the Twins is (a) impossible to please (b) do not put their money with their mouth is and (c) a pain in the ass for the warranties and quality arms of the company.

Dealers also aren't thrilled with the cars because they know their allocations are going to be lot rocks, especially if they are (forced) to take one after Q2. To put this into context, when I went to get my BRZ, the salesman said that the last BRZ he sold was 4 months ago. This is at probably the largest or second largest dealership network in Ontario where they move 100's of cars per month.

Keep in mind your area. They sell much faster in other parts of the world. Doesn't help that there was very little advertising done for these cars.

Want to see the advertising direction that they should have gone? Look no further than the Miata.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5UjmHOl4pU"]A Driver’s Life – Driving Matters™ | 2016 Mazda MX-5 Miata| Mazda USA - YouTube[/ame]

It's a pure masterpiece and goes after the emotions, the same emotions that drive people to buy a sports car in the first place.

[darthpnoy1984]

Funny that video Mazda made was a big swipe at Tesla.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

If you knew how a throttle works, you would know that changing the DBW map has nothing to do with passing emissions requirements. The throttle simply controls the air that is let into the engine. The fuel is actually managed by the ECU in response to the airflow through the engine, which can be affected by rpm, intake, and exhaust restrictions. Not only can the OEM do this, the OEM is actively doing this with the less powerful, economical models. That's why I mentioned the Corolla, which has been drive by wire since at least 2010.

I've mentioned both Final Drive and drive-by-wire specifically because neither mod changes the actual amount of horsepower the car puts down, but instead, each mod increases the power felt by the driver. Now, what is the most common complaint buyers and reviewers have about this car? That it doesn't have enough power. Not only are these two changes doable by the OEM, but they are already being done by the OEM. It is "my opinion" that they just aren't taking it far enough.

What?
Your techno babble with no true grasp of the true function of the throttle and fuel/air mixture is amusing.
You think the throttle has nothing to do with how much gas is injected and just controls air flow? That is hilarious.
Increases the "power" felt by the driver? Oh that is a good one. You had better get an email off to the manufacturers right away and explain that you have discovered something they are overlooking and that they can do with no problem. Make sure you send all your testing records to prove that your butt dyno is fully calibrated and up to the current ISO test standards. I am sure they will pay you millions for saving them so much trouble.

I guess I am wasting my time with you again since your incredible ability to take one aspect of a system and run with it while totally disregarding all the other factors is truly mind boggling.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Holy shit. Wow. Did you actually read the post you quoted? "list of reasons that could fill a book."

I'll up the ante and correct Tcoat. Should read "list of reasons that fill a book."

Several books actually. To the best of my memory there are currently at least 800 ISO standards that apply to the testing requirements and protocols for cars and their component parts. That is just one standard of several dozen that apply. Then we can get into the reams of regulatory requirements. They would fill another volume. These asshats that think that the manufacturers can just do whatever they want have no bloody clue the reality of what the industry deals with.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Several books actually. To the best of my memory there are currently at least 800 ISO standards that apply to the testing requirements and protocols for cars and their component parts.

Yeah, mine was a whopper of an understatement.