Will you wait for the second model year to purchase your 86?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

The dealership crashing the car has nothing to do with Toyota. The dealership botching the repair work on the engine that was incorrectly designed by Toyota/Subaru hits a lot closer. Also see above about how Toyota/Subaru chose to implement the repair.

The dealer tech botching the sealant on the engine doesn't either.
If you are saying the cause of the failures after botched repairs is because the repair had to be made then you are saying that it falling off the hoist, being crashed, bursting into flames because somebody poured gas on it, being crushed by rampaging elephants is the same thing since it wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Toyota told them how to do the repair properly, gave them the parts and PAID them to do the work. That is where their responsibility ends.

Not so sure why this seems to be so hard to grasp.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

In this case it’s less like Subaru and Walmart, and more like Subaru and an independent garage that Subaru chose, allowed to operate under their Subaru branding, negotiated/contracted with, and paid personally to make the repairs.

When you think about it, the real relationship is between Subaru and the dealership. The owner neither chose to use a Subaru dealership nor paid them for the repairs. It’s pretty easy to see why a dealership wouldn’t give a rats ass about the owner and his blown engine, unless Subaru tells them to.

Keep in mind that MANY of the dealerships did own up and fix the cars. More than didn't. Subaru didn't tell them they had to but they were good honest places that did the right thing. The ones that just said "talk to Subaru/Toyota" are the weasels.

[Red-86]

I just bought a new car (370Z) that I intend on kepping for a few years, so I won’t be buying a first or second model year mkII 86. But depending on how it turns out, I might consider adding the 4-5 year ‘mid-life refresh’ version to my shortlist if I’m in the market at that time. Probably not though, I don’t think I’ll go back to a car with less than 300 HP unless it’s something ultra light like an MX-5.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The dealer tech botching the sealant on the engine doesn't either.
If you are saying the cause of the failures after botched repairs is because the repair had to be made then you are saying that it falling off the hoist, being crashed, bursting into flames because somebody poured gas on it, being crushed by rampaging elephants is the same thing since it wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Toyota told them how to do the repair properly, gave them the parts and PAID them to do the work. That is where their responsibility ends.

Not so sure why this seems to be so hard to grasp.

If cars falling off hoists, being crashed, bursting into flames from people pouring gas on them, and being crushed by random elephants were all reasonably foreseeable risks to having an engine taken apart for a valve spring replacement, then you’d have a point. And you’d have seen Toyota/Subaru issue a memo warning dealerships how to avoid rampaging elephants when doing the valve spring recall. But that’s not the case.

The risk of sealant being improperly applied when resealing an engine is a much more foreseeable risk. And that risk in fact materialized numerous times during the recall campaign, leading to engine failures.. Why else do you think Toyota/Subaru would have subsequently issued the warning memo on the sealing process?

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Keep in mind that MANY of the dealerships did own up and fix the cars. More than didn't. Subaru didn't tell them they had to but they were good honest places that did the right thing. The ones that just said "talk to Subaru/Toyota" are the weasels.

Yep I agree. The majority were taken care of one way or another. It’s the ones that fell through the cracks that Subaru/Toyota should address.

By now, I’ve said what I think needed to be said on behalf of the affected owners. If you or others can’t understand that Toyota/Subaru were in the best position to help those owners (from a recall process designed by Toyota/Subaru, carried out by dealers authorized to wear their branding, paid for directly by Subaru/Toyota for a part that Subaru/Toyota admittedly incorrectly designed), then I don’t think I can say anything further.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

If in some theoretical world Subaru/Toyota has simply paid owners a fair price to replace their valve springs, I’d be less inclined to blame them for the failed repairs since owners could choose whether or not to do the repair, choose the shop they wanted to make the repair, and would have leverage over the shop as a paying customer. But Subaru/Toyota instead used a recall (mandatory in CA) and forced owners to go through their dealerships for the repairs (obviously to their own financial benefit). At that point, they took on more responsibility that the repairs be done properly.

I don't completely disagree with you on the ability to choose a shop, that should be an option. S/T aren't going to pay you if you don't fix the issue though Why? Because recall items are good for the life of the vehicle, and if it fails later under the next owner S/T is on the hook to pay again. Actually even if it doesn't fail they might be.

Also, there are circumstances where the warranty repair would have been paid for at an independent shop, but it requires the actual faliure of the valve spring to occur.

Look, I think S/T SHOULD require their authorized dealers to repair an engine that can clearly be shown to have failed because of the repair. It takes just a few minutes to drop the oil pan, look at the screen and go "yep, somebody screwed up, fix it". I just don't think they have that leverage in their dealer agreements. They can agree to pay for it, but I don't know that they can force them to fix it for free, and that is where the rub is.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I don't completely disagree with you on the ability to choose a shop, that should be an option. S/T aren't going to pay you if you don't fix the issue though Why? Because recall items are good for the life of the vehicle, and if it fails later under the next owner S/T is on the hook to pay again. Actually even if it doesn't fail they might be.

Also, there are circumstances where the warranty repair would have been paid for at an independent shop, but it requires the actual faliure of the valve spring to occur.

Look, I think S/T SHOULD require their authorized dealers to repair an engine that can clearly be shown to have failed because of the repair. It takes just a few minutes to drop the oil pan, look at the screen and go "yep, somebody screwed up, fix it". I just don't think they have that leverage in their dealer agreements. They can agree to pay for it, but I don't know that they can force them to fix it for free, and that is where the rub is.

Yep I agree with all of that. I get the sense that if they really wanted to, S/T could send out an engineer to inspect every failed engine under dispute and exert their leverage over their dealers to make things right. But to them, their relationship with any individual dealer is way more valuable than any single customer.

So everyone passes the buck until it's left in the hands of the owner.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Yep I agree with all of that. I get the sense that if they really wanted to, S/T could send out an engineer to inspect every failed engine under dispute and exert their leverage over their dealers to make things right. But to them, their relationship with any individual dealer is way more valuable than any single customer.

So everyone passes the buck until it's left in the hands of the owner.

I think that sums it up really well, the parent company and dealer play hot potato and the customer ends up getting screwed. It’s just a crappy system in general. And I’m sure the majority of FR-S/BRZ owners that decided (or were forced to in California) didn’t have any problems after the repair. A bunch of owners outside of CA probably didn’t even get the recall done. Possibly in fear of engine failure. Let’s be honest, a lot of dealerships would wash their hands of the repair after they attempt the fix. Any problems after that the customer will likely pay for (because T/S wouldn’t pay them to do the repair again).


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[JesseG]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

If cars falling off hoists, being crashed, bursting into flames from people pouring gas on them, and being crushed by random elephants were all reasonably foreseeable risks to having an engine taken apart for a valve spring replacement, then you’d have a point. And you’d have seen Toyota/Subaru issue a memo warning dealerships how to avoid rampaging elephants when doing the valve spring recall. But that’s not the case.

The risk of sealant being improperly applied when resealing an engine is a much more foreseeable risk. And that risk in fact materialized numerous times during the recall campaign, leading to engine failures.. Why else do you think Toyota/Subaru would have subsequently issued the warning memo on the sealing process?



Yep I agree. The majority were taken care of one way or another. It’s the ones that fell through the cracks that Subaru/Toyota should address.

By now, I’ve said what I think needed to be said on behalf of the affected owners. If you or others can’t understand that Toyota/Subaru were in the best position to help those owners (from a recall process designed by Toyota/Subaru, carried out by dealers authorized to wear their branding, paid for directly by Subaru/Toyota for a part that Subaru/Toyota admittedly incorrectly designed), then I don’t think I can say anything further.

I laughed at the rampaging elephants
What about meteor strikes?! Or an alien abducts your car and performs “experiments” on it. Who would cover that?!!
I guess you could ask them to get rid of the torque dip


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[JesseG]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Yep I agree with all of that. I get the sense that if they really wanted to, S/T could send out an engineer to inspect every failed engine under dispute and exert their leverage over their dealers to make things right. But to them, their relationship with any individual dealer is way more valuable than any single customer.

So everyone passes the buck until it's left in the hands of the owner.

That would be nice, but S/T would need to care enough first.
Weren’t some parts sent back to Japan to be investigated? Maybe entire engines? That also makes me wonder how the recall was handled in Japan.


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[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by JesseG

That would be nice, but S/T would need to care enough first.
Weren’t some parts sent back to Japan to be investigated? Maybe entire engines? That also makes me wonder how the recall was handled in Japan.


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I think I remember hearing stories of blown engines getting shipped for analysis, although not sure if specifically related to the valve spring recall.

I do hope S/T care though. Even though my recall work appears to have gone smoothly, I know of one other guy who went to the same dealership as me and had his engine die after the repair work was completed. Dealership and Toyota both said they wouldn’t help him. Stories like that make me question whether I would ever be an early adopter again, let alone buy another S/T product.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

If cars falling off hoists, being crashed, bursting into flames from people pouring gas on them, and being crushed by random elephants were all reasonably foreseeable risks to having an engine taken apart for a valve spring replacement, then you’d have a point. And you’d have seen Toyota/Subaru issue a memo warning dealerships how to avoid rampaging elephants when doing the valve spring recall. But that’s not the case.

The risk of sealant being improperly applied when resealing an engine is a much more foreseeable risk. And that risk in fact materialized numerous times during the recall campaign, leading to engine failures.. Why else do you think Toyota/Subaru would have subsequently issued the warning memo on the sealing process?



Yep I agree. The majority were taken care of one way or another. It’s the ones that fell through the cracks that Subaru/Toyota should address.

By now, I’ve said what I think needed to be said on behalf of the affected owners. If you or others can’t understand that Toyota/Subaru were in the best position to help those owners (from a recall process designed by Toyota/Subaru, carried out by dealers authorized to wear their branding, paid for directly by Subaru/Toyota for a part that Subaru/Toyota admittedly incorrectly designed), then I don’t think I can say anything further.

Doesn't matter if the risk was "foreseeable" it is simply not the manufacturer's responsibility to replace engines damaged at the dealer level.
It sucks that the guys got stuck with it but that is the reality of the situation.
If people put half the energy into chasing those dealers instead of trying to get the wrong party to pay they probably would have caved and did what they should have.

[p1l0t]

I'm regret this necro. I swear I'll never do it again. (at least this month)

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[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Doesn't matter if the risk was "foreseeable" it is simply not the manufacturer's responsibility to replace engines damaged at the dealer level.
It sucks that the guys got stuck with it but that is the reality of the situation.
If people put half the energy into chasing those dealers instead of trying to get the wrong party to pay they probably would have caved and did what they should have.

Any owner who filed a lawsuit and didn't name S/T in addition to the dealer should fire their attorney. Seriously. Also wouldn't have to be a full replacement of the engine. There are other ways to pressure dealers to do the right thing or otherwise help the affected owners.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I think I remember hearing stories of blown engines getting shipped for analysis, although not sure if specifically related to the valve spring recall.

I do hope S/T care though. Even though my recall work appears to have gone smoothly, I know of one other guy who went to the same dealership as me and had his engine die after the repair work was completed. Dealership and Toyota both said they wouldn’t help him. Stories like that make me question whether I would ever be an early adopter again, let alone buy another S/T product.

I do believe they care, we probably wouldn’t even have the twins if they didn’t. I think Toyota takes quality control issues very seriously, part of their reputation is built on reliability. It’s unfortunate how some of the early issues were handled though. It may have been handled a little differently if it was strictly a Toyota product. Were the valves and head tuned by Yamaha?
I totally understand being hesitant about getting a first year 2nd gen 86, or any S/T product. Confidence in a brand can be lost quickly, especially if it causes any financial burden. You’ve had a great attitude about it all, and I hope you continue to support the 86/BRZ.


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