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BRZ Second-Gen (2022+) -- General Topics General topics for the second-gen BRZ |
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11-30-2020, 06:17 PM | #29 |
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Yep. Looks just like the top of a Subaru engine with the Toyota fuel system.
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11-30-2020, 08:25 PM | #31 |
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I could never understand why people do that.
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The Following User Says Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post: | gymratter (11-30-2020) |
12-01-2020, 01:10 AM | #32 | ||||
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What I wanted to say is that the FA24F could reasonably hit the values they achieved without having to make dyno manipulations, and I say that based on comparisons to the FA20D's stock power and "reliable" power potential and the FA24F's stock power. I was also saying that power could be even higher on the FA24D when boosted with E85 because of the higher compression, assuming the internals could handle it of course, but I didn't state that. Quote:
Again, we don't know what is in the FA24D, but it is likely the higher displacement and higher compression means the rods might be reinforced enough that the power potential will be raised compared to the FA20D. I wouldn't be surprised if the car will handle 400-450whp from the 350whp that the FA20D can reliably handle. Quote:
Typically a truck motor is heavy like cast iron vs aluminum to keep reliability high and cost down. Typically a truck motor is a low stressed motor by having less aggressive compression, less aggressive cam profiles and less flow to the heads. Typically a truck motor is low revving and high torque, which it achieves through an undersquare design, but even if it is not undersquare, there is a long stroke on the motor. Let's consider the FA24F now. It has an aluminum block. For a turbocharged car, it has relatively high compression. The engine is undersquare, and at 86mm, the stroke is relatively short for a "truck engine". The motor revs high enough--higher than a truck engine typically would. I wouldn't call it a truck motor. I would just call it a typical passenger car motor--not a sporty car motor or a truck motor. Just saying. Seems like anything that is not a sporty car engine is a truck engine to some. Oh, and they weren't running a heavily modified motor. Essentially, it was a stock longblock with ARP head studs--no internal upgrades--just bolt-ons. Yes, it had several bolt-ons, but there whole point was to test the limits of the stock block and stock injectors, which is why the upgrades are headers, turbo, FMIC, exhaust, intake, etc. The high compression on the FA24D is not necessarily a deal breaker for turbocharging, which is what I said earlier, that E85 is very good at protecting the motor from pre-ignition. Many people with access to E85 don't drop compression when building the motor when going for 500whp+. Several tuners here say it is not necessary to drop compression, as E85 deals with the issues. This could be true for 13.5:1 too if Toyobaru cleverly engineered the motor or if the larger pistons act as a heat sink or increased the surface area to aid combustion or some wizardry. The big thing will be if they reinforced the rods enough to handle the power. They obviously increased the rod size per this quote below compared to the FA20. They didn't specify if they mean the FA20D or FA20F, but I will assume they mean the FA20F. Regardless, the rod size on the FA20F wasn't too different to the rod size on the FA20D, and the FA20F and FA24F make similar power, so we could see much beefier rods on the FA24D, if we are following the trends. So maybe the engine won't go kaboom. Quote:
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The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post: | Tcoat (12-01-2020) |
12-01-2020, 04:53 AM | #33 | |
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You can bet that the version that goes into the WRX/STI will not be exactly the same. Depends on how you define "bolt ons" I guess. I do not consider a completely changed intake system as "bolt on" even if that is how it is attached. Pretty much all that remains stock is the block and basic internals. FA24DIT OEM Ascent long block w/ ARP head studs STI drivetrain FP XR Blue 73HTZ twin scroll ball bearing turbo Killer B IWG twin scroll header Invidia J pipe w/ 3" catback Cobb intake Cobb FMIC IBR BRZ intake manifold conversion w/ complete TGV deletes Stock WRX ecu w/ Cobb AP & SD tuning software Cobb EBCS Cobb Flex Fuel kit Hardwired fuel pump Nostrum HPFP Stock injectors IAG AOS
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Last edited by Tcoat; 12-01-2020 at 06:14 AM. |
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12-01-2020, 11:24 AM | #34 |
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Forced induction is only limited by the wallet and financial sensibility. Anything is possible but is it worth it?
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12-02-2020, 01:40 AM | #35 | ||
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Yeah, so bolt-ons are everything that a basic novice with a few tools can add tot he car, which is everything up to things like a turbo or supercharger system. One of the reasons the 2JZ is so famous is because it can handle so much power with just bolt ons; add a larger turbo, larger injectors, larger fuel pump, a boost controller and boost cut controller and a full exhaust and the engine was pumping out 700whp all day long. Stuff that goes beyond bolt ons would be reworking the heads by porting and polishing then flow bench testing the work, or machining the block before installing a stroker kit, etc. Typically when someone is cracking open the longblock, the knowledge set on everything goes up a lot from understanding cam timing, torquing things in sequence, milling things to certain tolerances, matching parts to meet specs, etc. It is an entirely different game. As to Prime Motoring, what they did was simple bolt ons, and what they demonstrated so far seems to be promising from the perspective only of the FA24F, and hopefully, some of the good news applies to the FA24D. To keep the longblock unmodified is a testament to what this thing can do in the FA24F. I'm sure the FA24D will be impressive in its own way, and I agree that the new STI with their version of the FA24F will be a beast, but I favor the fueling of the FA24D, as I doubt the STI will have D4S and that is really nice for simplicity (adding larger port injectors), longevity/reliability (cleaning the valves) and performance (modulating low duty, while having enough overhead for heavy duty by running large PI and stock/low DI).
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12-02-2020, 06:49 AM | #36 |
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For what it’s worth, I was boosted on a stock block & pump gas up to 9psi, and when I decided to have my engine built, I had asked to maintain the 12.5 comp ratio to keep low end throttle response even if it meant a lower top end at the end. As DD reliability was a key goal for me The builders/tuners indicated they could do it, but strongly advised against it to keep some safety margin, so we ended up going for 10.0 CR. E85 is not readily available in my area, best I have is 94 octane. I think the build ended around 21/22 psi on HB. So it will interesting to see if the R&D on the new gen FA24 will find ways to reliably go beyond milder boost levels on a stock block when E85 is not available. nitro possibly ? However unless the tranny was also beefed up (I am not aware that it has), then that will remain a weaker point once you go beyond that anyway. My sense is that there will be more people that sit perfectly happy with a tune and some bolt ons without FI than on gen 1, and the bolder folks that do go all out, well they will just continue to do so... :-)
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12-02-2020, 07:44 AM | #37 | |
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12-02-2020, 12:34 PM | #38 | |
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12-02-2020, 12:41 PM | #39 | |
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12-02-2020, 01:10 PM | #40 | |
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Subaru doesn't go crazy with their WRX trans, which has limits at around 400 wtq from what I've read. This isn't significantly different from the limits of our trans, and the wrx has a LOT more torque. Now I know that isn't an apples to apples comparison, it just makes me think that to save on cost, they might have some minimal updates to our trans as it can handle plenty to begin with. |
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12-03-2020, 06:45 AM | #41 |
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Here’s an excerpt from the subaru website that would support your hypothesis...
6-Speed Manual or Automatic with Paddle Shifters Choose between the control of the standard close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission with short-throw shifter – upgraded for 2022 – or the convenience of the available reengineered 6-speed automatic transmission with paddle shifters and downshift rev-matching. |
12-03-2020, 11:02 AM | #42 |
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