Help me decide...

[Code Monkey]

If you find one in the Atlanta area, I can drive it to CO for you.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by spectre6000

FWD is a complete non-starter. I'm not entirely opposed to AWD, but it's not my first choice. Anything Ford is also a complete non-starter from extensive personal experience, and also being aware of events in the automotive world and how Ford consistently handles them by throwing their owners under the bus.

Reliability, to me, mostly just means ability to get parts, no special factory tools that require licensure and whatever other nonsense, and no stupid engineering/cost cutting mistakes. I like to wrench, and I like building engines. I just need to be able to get parts. For many years, I exclusively drove air cooled VWs. They're insanely unreliable UNLESS you maintain them, then they're nearly bulletproof. Treat an ACVW like a modern car, and you're guaranteed to be done with it in under 2K miles, because it'll pretty much stop running when the valves stop opening. Maintenance includes engine rebuilds every 80-100K miles, and makes for a nice and genuinely pleasant weekend project. Kinda like a rotary, only no valves to adjust, and longer oil change intervals.

My third choice, that's barely on the radar at the moment, is a N55 335i. Full rear seat, rear doors, and trunk. They're boy racer darlings (just like the other two options), but finding a clean one with adult ownership is more likely than with the RX8, and obviously less than a new BRZ. Capable of big power, but heavy and not super tossable. Also, for all the complaints about oil consumption on rotaries (where it's intended), BMWs are some of the thirstiest cars I've ever come across in that regard; more than even a sick rotary in many cases. It's not NOT an option, just kind of at the back of the line there...

Do you have a budget? Yeah I agree there are a few BMWs that might fit your requirements, depending on the $

[spectre6000]

A new BRZ is top of the budget. ~$30K, but no reason to spend it all if I don't have to. The initial impetus here was for a project-fun car. If I spend $10K on the car, I have $20k to go nuts with. If I buy a new BRZ, I'd probably keep it stock for a while, but would still do what I could to make it better, just probably at a slower clip.

The problem I have with BMWs is that my biggest pet peeve is when an engine burns oil (when it's not supposed to). It's common for BMWs to burn more oil than even a sick rotary. I think a big part of the reason it bugs me so much is that it's very difficult to assess during a pre-purchase inspection. Dealers don't know (and would lie through their teeth even if they did), and most private sellers will plead ignorance.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by spectre6000

A new BRZ is top of the budget. ~$30K, but no reason to spend it all if I don't have to. The initial impetus here was for a project-fun car. If I spend $10K on the car, I have $20k to go nuts with. If I buy a new BRZ, I'd probably keep it stock for a while, but would still do what I could to make it better, just probably at a slower clip.

The problem I have with BMWs is that my biggest pet peeve is when an engine burns oil (when it's not supposed to). It's common for BMWs to burn more oil than even a sick rotary. I think a big part of the reason it bugs me so much is that it's very difficult to assess during a pre-purchase inspection. Dealers don't know (and would lie through their teeth even if they did), and most private sellers will plead ignorance.

Yeah sorry I can't help you with BMW engine issues - though I will say that often these types of issues are related to poor maintenance and lack of care for a vehicle rather than 'all BMW engines burn oil' type of thing.

[spectre6000]

The issue is the aluminum blocks, and the thin cylinder coatings they use combined with the typical BMW salesman/buyer combo. BMW is one of those companies that does the "lifetime" fill on the transmission, despite technically only having a service life of 60k miles or something like that, "no break in", and myriad other little things that all pretty much add up to oil consumption. Pretty much sets the cars up to fail. I'm sure it's possible to have one not burn oil, but it's very uncommon. My 330i was pretty decent, and only burned about a quart/5k. I change my oil on the fives, so it worked out well for me.

[bcj]

The owners manual for my 1200cc BMW motorcycle explicitly says to expect to use up to 500cc of oil per 1k kilometers.
Kind of what they do. Adding oil seems to keep it happy though.

[spectre6000]

I heard this secondhand, so consider it for what it's worth: Supposedly BMW's threshold for oil consumption (in regards to a 335i) is a quart/liter in 800 miles. Insane.

[Teseo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Want rotary, get rotary. I had one, I *loved* it up until it did something that I'm not supposed to talk about

Want reliability? I'd get something else... Backseat access desired, maybe E90?

I want RX8 but would be a weekend car... or take that money and S/C the frs.

[PBR]

I've owned 2 RX8s. Had an EVO X in between that I just couldn't get along with. The RX8 is a higher quality car but agree, it's old. I love that engine despite it requiring more and different maintenance. So smooth everything else I've owned feels like it runs on sand. Double wishbone up front and extremely high torsional rigidity. They're geared fairly tall is my only real complaint. The R3 is an overlooked gem and I'd rather have an RX8 than an AP1 or AP2 by a mile. Even just for the much better steering feel. I wrote this on the forum somewhere else but the increased rigidity of the 2nd gen Twins reminded me of my Rx8s. I'd take an RX8 over a Gen 1 but for availability of parts, the newness factor, the nice characteristics of the FA24, I'd take my '22 BRZ over my RX8s.

[mike2100]

Originally Posted by PBR

I've owned 2 RX8s. Had an EVO X in between that I just couldn't get along with. The RX8 is a higher quality car but agree, it's old. I love that engine despite it requiring more and different maintenance. So smooth everything else I've owned feels like it runs on sand. Double wishbone up front and extremely high torsional rigidity. They're geared fairly tall is my only real complaint. The R3 is an overlooked gem and I'd rather have an RX8 than an AP1 or AP2 by a mile. Even just for the much better steering feel. I wrote this on the forum somewhere else but the increased rigidity of the 2nd gen Twins reminded me of my Rx8s. I'd take an RX8 over a Gen 1 but for availability of parts, the newness factor, the nice characteristics of the FA24, I'd take my '22 BRZ over my RX8s.

I'm glad I have that to look forward to, with my 23 BRZ on order.
Funny story about buying my first RX-8. I had just graduated from college. For the previous 4 years all I wanted was an STI. It was my go-to car in Gran Turismo 3. So I test drove a 2004 STI, a 2004 WRX, and the 2005 RX-8. I absolutely hated the STI on the test drive. Too rough and crashy. And the WRX's turbo lag was insane. I test drove the RX-8 last and absolutely fell in love with it. One reviewer said driving the RX-8 was like bolting wings onto your arms. I agree.
Fast forward to my '13 FR-S. I really enjoyed that car. So fun to drive. The torque dip is kinda like turbo lag, but not if you keep the revs up. I finally learned how to heel-toe in that car. With just some aftermarket pedal covers I could heel-toe on the street in flip-flops, and I wasn't even pushing the car hard. The '18 BRZ with PP was a step up in refinement. More comfy and nice creature comforts. Hoping the new engine ties it all together. The RX-8 was rated at 232 hp, but weighed closer to 3000 lbs.
To round out my experience, I've also owned a 2015 STI, 2020 WRX, 90 CRX Si, 95 Civic EX, 2009 Fit, 99 Miata 10AE. Not actually in that order.
BTW, if the Miata were available in a hard top I would probably buy that instead of the BRZ. Better power:weight and it has double wishbone up front. I just don't want to install a roll bar, which would be required to drive it at VIR.

edit: I said something factually incorrect. The 22+ BRZ actually has a slightly better power:weight ratio than the ND2 Miata Club.

[PBR]

Originally Posted by mike2100

I'm glad I have that to look forward to, with my 23 BRZ on order.
Funny story about buying my first RX-8. I had just graduated from college. For the previous 4 years all I wanted was an STI. It was my go-to car in Gran Turismo 3. So I test drove a 2004 STI, a 2004 WRX, and the 2005 RX-8. I absolutely hated the STI on the test drive. Too rough and crashy. And the WRX's turbo lag was insane. I test drove the RX-8 last and absolutely fell in love with it. One reviewer said driving the RX-8 was like bolting wings onto your arms. I agree.
Fast forward to my '13 FR-S. I really enjoyed that car. So fun to drive. The torque dip is kinda like turbo lag, but not if you keep the revs up. I finally learned how to heel-toe in that car. With just some aftermarket pedal covers I could heel-toe on the street in flip-flops, and I wasn't even pushing the car hard. The '18 BRZ with PP was a step up in refinement. More comfy and nice creature comforts. Hoping the new engine ties it all together. The RX-8 was rated at 232 hp, but weighed closer to 3000 lbs.
To round out my experience, I've also owned a 2015 STI, 2020 WRX, 90 CRX Si, 95 Civic EX, 2009 Fit, 99 Miata 10AE. Not actually in that order.
BTW, if the Miata were available in a hard top I would probably buy that instead of the BRZ. Better power:weight and it has double wishbone up front. I just don't want to install a roll bar, which would be required to drive it at VIR.

A 2+2 MX5 coupe would be ideal for me but this is close enough. I've had quite a few cars from Evora, Elises, AP2, FRS, E36 M3 and a 997.1 among a few others. Bought an AP2 after owning an RX8. Preferred the RX8 by quite a bit for feel. The S2K gearbox is nice. Everything else? Well... Definitely prefer the RX8. I find it strange they're so overlooked but I think it's not only a rotary issue but an image problem also. Which the twins suffer from. Couldn't care less with regular trips to the Rev limiter and dabs of opposite lock. Anyways, the RX8 was playful like the twins. They like to slide and are easy to control at and over the limits. I remember test driving a 350Z around the same time. I'll never understand why anyone chose that over an RX8 lol. In regards to the FA24, it's definitely not an FA20. I'd you told me the FA20 makes 180 hp and 130 ft/lbs of torque? I'd believe you. If you told me the FA24 makes 240 hp and 200 ft/lbs of torque? I'd believe you. I would've paid $50K for what this car doesn't have. I can't wrap my head around a 3500 lbs "pure" sports car. I'm 43. Those are sports sedan #s to me. There are a lot of car guy cars on the market with awesome specs in the brochure. There are very few, pure driver's cars on sale today that aren't somewhat luxury oriented. Imo, of course��

[eyeballs]

If you can find one, an IS300 could work as well. A buddy of mine had one and liked it so much, he had me looking for one before I got the rx8. Unfortunately, manual trans cars are rare.

[jflogerzi]

Look at used veloster n with the Performance pack. Much better daily driver, still can be hammered at the track and has the funky 3 door config perfect for child seat duty.