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GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


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Old 08-19-2021, 09:32 AM   #211
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GR86 first drive reviews thread

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Originally Posted by Blighty View Post
I love how you get a bunch of (genreally non owners) journalists talking about the 'peak torque 3000 rpm lower than the previous gen'

Not really a criticism, just funny. I mean the OG car almost had its peak before the dip - it was like 153 or something, so its not so much that the torque wasn't just as high initially, its just that it drop its guts for 1.5k revs.

Only a few journalists have correctly emphasised the torque curve being what is important.

Yea the FA20 has a ton of low end torque under the dip. Nobody ever acknowledges this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
I really love how well the FA20 pulls in 2nd and 3rd gear after 6000 RPM.
This is my take too. The FA20 feels sublime between 6000 rpm and redline. It loves to be in that range and it’s so rewarding to wring it out. I mostly agree with Cammisa’s opinions, but taking the the FA20 to redline not being rewarding is hogwash to me.
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Old 08-19-2021, 09:38 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
Oh yeah, it's not a simple matter of "same stroke length so same torque curve" (as opposed to the Honda's FC20->22 and K20->24 updates that lengthened the stroke and reduced the redline which would obviously alter the torque curve substantially). I still wish they would have kept the higher peak torque - the way the torque tapers off in the FA24 after ~6000 is a little disappointing on paper. I'll have to see how that feels behind the wheel, but I really love how well the FA20 pulls in 2nd and 3rd gear after 6000 RPM.
Yeah, again, somewhere in the details they mention having a hard time getting the FA24 to keep breathing at the high end. On a positive end, the power curve remains the same, which will define acceleration and feel to be fairly equivalent in terms of its characteristics compared to gen1. A couple reviewers of the FA24 also mentioned that it really comes to shine right at the top - which makes sense considering that the power still peaks out up there.
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Old 08-19-2021, 09:54 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
I'm sure that's exactly the reason Subaru/Toyota tuned the FA24 that way - they sacrificed the top end for an on-paper advantage. Sure, the torque curve of the FA24 is improved low-mid RPMs, but I would have preferred the same top end as the FA20, which would have given 246 peak HP over the current 228, even if the low-mid would have remained the same (but would still have more torque overall due to higher displacement).
...
Oh I think they probably got the most out of it (according to their reliability tolerance), but if your right then aftermarket tuning will tell you.

This is a wonderfully open platform - looking forward to tuners just focussing on performance and not spending a lifetime trying to cure the torque dip.

Am I right or am I right!
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:02 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
Oh yeah, it's not a simple matter of "same stroke length so same torque curve" (as opposed to the Honda's FC20->22 and K20->24 updates that lengthened the stroke and reduced the redline which would obviously alter the torque curve substantially). I still wish they would have kept the higher peak torque - the way the torque tapers off in the FA24 after ~6000 is a little disappointing on paper. I'll have to see how that feels behind the wheel, but I really love how well the FA20 pulls in 2nd and 3rd gear after 6000 RPM.
It doesnt end at 6k

The new engine is sitting within 95% of peak torque up until just before 7k. She likes to rev hard to redline - that a very hefty amount of torque up there.

We have images around here and I think someone did an estimate at the numbers per 100 or so (if i recall) revs which came out rather good.
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:15 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
  1. Is gen 2 more refined, quiter, etc.? My biggest draw to my BRZ is how raw it feels. I really hope they didn't change that
  2. How's the helmet room with the new headrests? The gen 1 headrests were designed to be flipped over for helmet use, but the gen 2 ones look different and more similar to regular headrests
Re. headrests, one of the reviewers showed that you can still flip them around for more helmet space. Also Matt Farrah said he fit fine in the new car at 6’3 with a helmet on and room to spare, so it looks like there will be at least as much space as the last gen for bigger drivers.
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:47 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Re. headrests, one of the reviewers showed that you can still flip them around for more helmet space. Also Matt Farrah said he fit fine in the new car at 6’3 with a helmet on and room to spare, so it looks like there will be at least as much space as the last gen for bigger drivers.

Thank your Subaru. I need all the headroom they can spare lol
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:49 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blighty View Post
I love how you get a bunch of (genreally non owners) journalists talking about the 'peak torque 3000 rpm lower than the previous gen'

Not really a criticism, just funny. I mean the OG car almost had its peak before the dip - it was like 153 or something, so its not so much that the torque wasn't just as high initially, its just that it drop its guts for 1.5k revs.

Only a few journalists have correctly emphasised the torque curve being what is important.
Yeah i noticed that too about the gen1 torque peak. I can see clear as day on my little dash infographic that it reaches peak or near peak (it actually looks like it peaks there, and not at 6600rpm) before the dip then loses about 20lb/ft at about 4000rpm thenn rises back up at about 5000rpm and gets to the peak again at 6600rpm.
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:56 AM   #218
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Has there been any reviews talking about the steering feedback relative to the FRS/BRZ? Always thought that was one area that had some room for improvement.

And I think the FA20's engine issue isn't just the torque dip, but even past that dip it feels flat, versus say a K20A where it feels like the engine keeps wanting to make more power. Not an exciting engine to wring out in stock form.
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:58 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Aki View Post
Has there been any reviews talking about the steering feedback relative to the FRS/BRZ? Always thought that was one area that had some room for improvement.

And I think the FA20's engine issue isn't just the torque dip, but even past that dip it feels flat, versus say a K20A where it feels like the engine keeps wanting to make more power. Not an exciting engine to wring out in stock form.
Some do, seems to be a little difference. I cant remember if it was a bit more or a bit less.
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:58 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
I'm sure that's exactly the reason Subaru/Toyota tuned the FA24 that way - they sacrificed the top end for an on-paper advantage. Sure, the torque curve of the FA24 is improved low-mid RPMs, but I would have preferred the same top end as the FA20, which would have given 246 peak HP over the current 228, even if the low-mid would have remained the same (but would still have more torque overall due to higher displacement).

I think they had two goals in mind - make a dramatic difference vs. the outgoing model to entice people to upgrade and turn the big negative (the engine) in every review of gen 1 into a positive in gen 2. Judging by all the reviews so far, they succeeded perfectly. Almost every review I've seen talked about how gen 1 was a very good car with the engine being its weak point, and how gen 2 kept all the good things and improved the engine.

I'm also curious about two points that nobody seemed to have touched on in their reviews:
  1. Is gen 2 more refined, quiter, etc.? My biggest draw to my BRZ is how raw it feels. I really hope they didn't change that
  2. How's the helmet room with the new headrests? The gen 1 headrests were designed to be flipped over for helmet use, but the gen 2 ones look different and more similar to regular headrests

This review at ~4min mark shows the headrests can be flipped around

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Old 08-19-2021, 12:26 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Re. headrests, one of the reviewers showed that you can still flip them around for more helmet space. Also Matt Farrah said he fit fine in the new car at 6’3 with a helmet on and room to spare, so it looks like there will be at least as much space as the last gen for bigger drivers.
Hah. Matt may fit fine from his prospective, but it looks like me trying to stuff myself into one of those kid's plastic "flintstone" cars..
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Old 08-19-2021, 12:38 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aki View Post
Has there been any reviews talking about the steering feedback relative to the FRS/BRZ? Always thought that was one area that had some room for improvement.

And I think the FA20's engine issue isn't just the torque dip, but even past that dip it feels flat, versus say a K20A where it feels like the engine keeps wanting to make more power. Not an exciting engine to wring out in stock form.
It feels the same as the 17+ cars IMO. The Zenki cars with the simple steering wheel had the best steering feel of the whole group I think. The GR86 is still good though, but definitely not a huge change.


Also, I saw somebody mention the knuckle; here are pictures I took of the front knuckle. Definitely aluminum. However, this car we were filming on was a pre-production prototype. I didn't check the cars we were driving.

Also, here's the rear suspension. The lower arms definitely seem like a thicker gauge steel than the previous combination arms. Which is good because the old LCA's often broke.
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Old 08-19-2021, 01:21 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
It feels the same as the 17+ cars IMO. The Zenki cars with the simple steering wheel had the best steering feel of the whole group I think. The GR86 is still good though, but definitely not a huge change.


Also, I saw somebody mention the knuckle; here are pictures I took of the front knuckle. Definitely aluminum. However, this car we were filming on was a pre-production prototype. I didn't check the cars we were driving.

Also, here's the rear suspension. The lower arms definitely seem like a thicker gauge steel than the previous combination arms. Which is good because the old LCA's often broke.

So as of now we won't know if these cars will feel any different from each other, until they are in NA customers hands. I know Japan media was able to directly compare these cars, but I felt translation was a little lost.



Thanks for the pictures though.
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Old 08-19-2021, 01:23 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Dzmitry View Post
With this platform, you can just swap the wheels directly
Then you've got a perfect comparison of equal wheel/tire weight and identical tires. Wouldn't cost a dime.
If you're a journalist / automotive reviewer who only ever reviews FT86 cars, you have a different problem to solve
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