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BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics All discussions about the first-gen Subaru BRZ coupe


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Old 01-31-2018, 07:10 PM   #141
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I Bought an automatic brz and wanted to explain why.

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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
p.s. In the past its been arguable that sticks were better at least in time attack and autox and the like. This was because they had more gears and it was easier to control revs and what not. With modern 6,7 and 8 speed autos with paddle shifters, this is no longer the case.


More importantly the MT is always attached to the drive wheels (assuming you have the clutch out) therefor you get engine braking which is extremely important for moving the weight between the front and rear wheels. When lifting on a traditional auto it disengages from the drive wheels so no weight will shift forward. You end up having to LFB to move any weight forward. Again, there is a lot more to an MT than shift time.
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:27 PM   #142
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Personally, I've never driven a car with an automatic transmission where I didn't feel like the transmission was between me and the rest of the car. With a manual, I feel like I become part of the machine, like the machine is an extension of my body instead of a piece of dead machinery I'm operating. I don't think about shifting. It just happens, like walking.

I worked in television for ten years, and I felt the same way about my cameras. Most professional television cameras don't have auto-focus, but they do have auto-iris and auto-white balance. They also have rockers for the zoom, but most have a switch on the bottom to turn the servo off to be able to zoom manually.

Most of the time I shot with everything turned off, because the camera felt more like an extension of my body that way. I was then able to (mentally) focus on what I was seeing through the viewfinder instead of being distracted by the machinery I was operating.

There were some things the camera could do better than I could. The zoom servo, for example, was smoother than I could turn the ring with my own hand. But that just meant I knew when to flip the zoom over to the rockers and when to leave it on manual to snap zoom to the focal length I needed for static shots. Kind of like using cruise control when it makes sense and turning it off when it doesn't.

Maybe some of you achieve that connected feeling with paddles, but I honestly don't see how.

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Originally Posted by Jordanwolf View Post
There is an overwhelming amount of people who don't buy MT solely because of traffic and their impressions of what it would be like in traffic, when in reality it's not hard at all.
I prefer the manual in traffic. You have more options with a manual than "stop" and "go." I find constantly having to counter an auto's urge to continue forward when in gear to be exhausting in heavy traffic.

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Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
My point in these debates is the constant instance that MT is more fun as if shifting is the only aspect of driving. It isn’t.
Straw man. Nobody is saying that.
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:36 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by extrashaky View Post


Straw man. Nobody is saying that.
Same car all other things being equal:
MT = Most fun driving ever
AT = Sucks and boring no matter what

You can deny people are saying that all you wish I see it as clear as day.
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:38 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
Same car all other things being equal:
MT = Most fun driving ever
AT = Sucks and boring no matter what

You can deny people are saying that all you wish I see it as clear as day.
Confirmation bias.
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:57 PM   #145
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Regardless of what is mechanically superior or not, to me there is something missing from the driving experience when I'm not shifting. Ultimately that's why I prefer to drive stick, because it just feels right. Other people prioritize different things, but I will always have more fun driving MT than AT.
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:00 PM   #146
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Confirmation bias.
LOL that is a two way street!
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:08 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
Same car all other things being equal:

MT = Most fun driving ever

AT = Sucks and boring no matter what



You can deny people are saying that all you wish I see it as clear as day.


I can speak for myself that although the tranny isn’t all there is to a car it is a big enough part of it to totally ruin it for me. If I have an option I will pick the manual. If it isn’t an option I pick another car. The problem is the bench racers are killing it for the rest of us.
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:04 PM   #148
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you're just a fucking troll...

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Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
Now you are just moving goal posts. Bringing up dual clutch autos, only including PERFORMANCE auto transmissions with your statement, and ignoring that fact that a automatic 86 can't launch.

I've never claimed that one transmission is better than another. My original comment was just pointing out that you were claiming that automatics are better than manuals. Obviously you arent trying to deny that right?
i SPECIFICALLY mentioned the not launching thing in my first post. I was merely bringing up the context of my comment regarding the superiority of auto.

There is no difference between the auto in our cars and the auto in high performance dual clutch transmissions in regards to your argument that MT are better in sports cars.

Jaden
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:07 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ermax View Post
I can speak for myself that although the tranny isn’t all there is to a car it is a big enough part of it to totally ruin it for me. If I have an option I will pick the manual. If it isn’t an option I pick another car. The problem is the bench racers are killing it for the rest of us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
Same car all other things being equal:
MT = Most fun driving ever
AT = Sucks and boring no matter what

You can deny people are saying that all you wish I see it as clear as day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrashaky View Post
Confirmation bias.
I think not!
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:35 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
i SPECIFICALLY mentioned the not launching thing in my first post. I was merely bringing up the context of my comment regarding the superiority of auto.

There is no difference between the auto in our cars and the auto in high performance dual clutch transmissions in regards to your argument that MT are better in sports cars.

Jaden
Dude, I never said manuals were better. I pointed out that you claimed autos are better, which you have done multiple times now. End of story.
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:48 PM   #151
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LOL...

Quote:
Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
Dude, I never said manuals were better. I pointed out that you claimed autos are better, which you have done multiple times now. End of story.
And I caveat emptored what context that statement was made in. I also pointed out in what ways the 86's AT is inferior and superior to the MT in the 86.

Is there a single type of auto tranny that is superior?? Sure.. A dual clutch or a clutched start sequential is the most superior trans type out there today.

Are there auto's that are traditional style that are superior? For drag, absolutely.

With modern paddle shift traditional AT trannies, there are literally no performance inferiorities except launching and 'fun'(which is subjective) when WHP is equal.

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Old 01-31-2018, 10:25 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
My point in these debates is the constant instance that MT is more fun as if shifting is the only aspect of driving. It isn’t.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ermax View Post
I can speak for myself that although the tranny isn’t all there is to a car it is a big enough part of it to totally ruin it for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
I think not!
Still a straw man. He said exactly the opposite of what you claimed.

Still confirmation bias. You're completely blind to the part of his post that doesn't fit with what you want to see.

Too bad.
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:32 PM   #153
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When WHP is the same. Hahaha. In other words you need a more powerful engine to compensate for the inefficiency of the torque converter.


If the auto can do these things I would say it’s equal other than fun factor:
Upshift within 250ms of command
Downshift within 250ms of command
Keep gear engaged when off throttle (engine brake)
No additional power loss through tranny vs that of MT
Rev match on downshift to prevent upset of balance mid turn
Skip gears on downshift. (6th to 3rd for example)
Same ratios and final drive

I already know the 86 auto fails on a bunch of those points but not sure about a few things. Will it keep the gear engaged when off throttle or does it go neutral when lifting the way a traditional auto does. If your in 6th and triple tap down, will it go directly to 3rd or does it drop one gear at a time? How well does it rev match? For example from 2nd to 1st at 25mph, can it do that without a jolt?

Looking on YouTube it looks like it up shifts after about 500ms and downshifts after about 750ms. 500ms is fine for an upshift. Timing on an upshift isn’t all that important anyways. 750ms before downshifting is a tad slow IMO. But not bad. It’s hard to judge how well it rev matches or if it engine brakes from watching YouTube videos.
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:33 PM   #154
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Fast 5 got the automatic transmission right!

I just watched this for the first time.

That's a 62 second quarter mile.
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