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Old 07-31-2022, 04:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Just throwing this out there, as I do:

If you’re doing limited HPDE usage, 20 minute sessions, 275F indicated oil temp with good synth 30wt is not that big a deal. IMO…
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Originally Posted by blsfrs View Post
You know that most of us would feel like we are having a colonoscopy (without anesthesia) if our oil temps got anywhere near 250*.
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Originally Posted by Ultramaroon View Post
How many total miles do you have now? I hope that we both keep our cars and, down the road, compare notes with respect to seals, oil control solenoids,... stuff like that. I'd be just as interested to learn that I'm wrong. In general, the hotter stuff gets, the sooner it gives up. Coil packs, for instance. They're mounted to, and surrounded by the valve cover, Oil temp affects way more than rings & bearings.
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Just over 70k miles, 40+ track days.



Temps of all that stuff is going to be driven more by coolant temp than oil temp. My coolant temp holds at 200F at the track, whatever the ambient temp (up to 98F at Thompson a couple years ago).
I've had many different track cars, and most of them hit 270 degrees F with no issues whatsoever. I even sent many oil samples for analysis, and even the oil sample from a 2014 Camaro SS that hit low 290s degrees F was in excellent shape.

Also, as someone suggested, unless you're going with a big core, you won't see much of a change. Installed such kits, and every time I had to double the size of the cooler to make it significantly better than OEM water to oil coolers

Sure, coolant temp is much higher than air and you'd think rate of heat transfer would be severely inhibited, but you should also keep in mind that so much coolant passes through that heat exchanger; the "mass" of coolant passing through there is massive, pun intended. If I recall correctly, the heat exchanger on my Corvette has 80K BTU capacity; that's nothing to scoff at ..

If you're worried, send it to Blackstone for analysis, and check if your oil is holding up. The odds are you'd be impressed how good synthetic oils fare...
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Old 07-31-2022, 09:41 AM   #30
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That's quite a cavalier dismissal. Where does coolant touch any of the components that I just mentioned. Think again.
Where does oil touch a coil pack?
I didn’t cavalierly dismiss the idea of getting an oil cooler. I looked into it and the more I researched the more I realized I just didn’t need one for my street/track usage

Quote:
edit: I mean it sounds like you're more invested in being right, than in rational consideration.
Not true at all. Nothing I’ve seen presented tells me I need an oil cooler. If it did I’d certainly have one. For me the idea that *maybe* some oil seals or sensor or whatevs *might* last a bit longer (or might not) isn’t a compelling argument.

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I've never seen numbers for the sump temp compared to post cooler temp. That would be interesting.
Somebody reported sump temps being ~15-20F cooler than indicated oil temp, like 255F with 270-275F indicated. Can’t find thread at the moment tho…
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Old 07-31-2022, 10:46 AM   #31
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I know this is basically a Mobil 1 advertisement and I will keep my oil cooler but it is interesting.



https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/...oil-protection
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Old 07-31-2022, 01:04 PM   #32
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Where does oil touch a coil pack?
I didn’t cavalierly dismiss the idea of getting an oil cooler. I looked into it and the more I researched the more I realized I just didn’t need one for my street/track usage

Not true at all. Nothing I’ve seen presented tells me I need an oil cooler. If it did I’d certainly have one. For me the idea that *maybe* some oil seals or sensor or whatevs *might* last a bit longer (or might not) isn’t a compelling argument.


Somebody reported sump temps being ~15-20F cooler than indicated oil temp, like 255F with 270-275F indicated. Can’t find thread at the moment tho…
KillerB was who reported the oil temp delta.

I’m in ZDan’s camp. There is no compelling reason for the oil cooler on the Gen 1. Plenty of OEMs and oil manufacturers have no or minimal issues bringing oil to 270F if not 320F as do race teams. Increase the viscosity appropriately and change it more often and all will be well.

My E9X M3s would routinely hit 270-280F on track with a cooler and BMW Motorsports response was use correct 10w60 oil and don’t pay it another thought.

My F8X M3s rarely hit 240, but they were spec’d 0w40 and later 0w30 and had the cooling to support that spec.

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Old 07-31-2022, 01:24 PM   #33
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KillerB was who reported the oil temp delta.

I’m in ZDan’s camp. There is no compelling reason for the oil cooler on the Gen 1. Plenty of OEMs and oil manufacturers have no or minimal issues bringing oil to 270F if not 320F as do race teams. Increase the viscosity appropriately and change it more often and all will be well.

My E9X M3s would routinely hit 270-280F on track with a cooler and BMW Motorsports response was use correct 10w60 oil and don’t pay it another thought.

My F8X M3s rarely hit 240, but they were spec’d 0w40 and later 0w30 and had the cooling to support that spec.
Are you really getting at the "lesser of two evils" principle?

If weighing a higher viscosity oil against using an oil cooler then it seems that the choice is the lesser of two evils which would be higher viscosity oil since an added oil cooler is just more mechanical complexity which could lead to other failures and complications.

I guess it's a question of to each his own then.
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Old 07-31-2022, 02:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Ultramaroon View Post
That's quite a cavalier dismissal. Where does coolant touch any of the components that I just mentioned. Think again.

edit: I mean it sounds like you're more invested in being right, than in rational consideration. It's fine as long as it's acknowledged.

I've never seen numbers for the sump temp compared to post cooler temp. That would be interesting.
I have. It depends on the cooler, but 20-35F isn't uncommon.
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Old 07-31-2022, 02:13 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by DrinkenBRZ View Post
KillerB was who reported the oil temp delta.

I’m in ZDan’s camp. There is no compelling reason for the oil cooler on the Gen 1. Plenty of OEMs and oil manufacturers have no or minimal issues bringing oil to 270F if not 320F as do race teams. Increase the viscosity appropriately and change it more often and all will be well.

My E9X M3s would routinely hit 270-280F on track with a cooler and BMW Motorsports response was use correct 10w60 oil and don’t pay it another thought.

My F8X M3s rarely hit 240, but they were spec’d 0w40 and later 0w30 and had the cooling to support that spec.
What race team allows for 320F?

Have you ever seen the rod bearings on a S65 with that kind of use with and without a properly sized oil cooler?

Why do you think that BMW went to a thinner oil with more bearing load (boost)?
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Old 07-31-2022, 02:34 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Where does oil touch a coil pack?
I didn’t cavalierly dismiss the idea of getting an oil cooler. I looked into it and the more I researched the more I realized I just didn’t need one for my street/track usage

Not true at all. Nothing I’ve seen presented tells me I need an oil cooler. If it did I’d certainly have one. For me the idea that *maybe* some oil seals or sensor or whatevs *might* last a bit longer (or might not) isn’t a compelling argument.

Somebody reported sump temps being ~15-20F cooler than indicated oil temp, like 255F with 270-275F indicated. Can’t find thread at the moment tho…
The coil packs mount to the valve cover and sit inside a tube, all of which are awash in oil, not engine coolant. I agree with you that "might last longer" isn't a compelling argument but that's not exactly what I said. The effects of wide swings in temperature on running components are well known. The "might" part is in how those effects apply to our specific systems, and how well they are designed/manufactured to tolerate them. Your experience alone is a strong argument. I cringe waiting for the bad news but you just keep motoring along. Gotta hand it to you for sticking to it.

The temperature disparity you mention wasn't reported as an actual difference. KillerB observed a difference between their calibrated sensors and the factory sensor. I more wonder about the actual temperature rise as the oil circulates through the block after being cooled. I don't know if you know about my oil cooler. It's just a long-running experiment in measuring what it takes to control temps in the widest operating conditions.
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Old 07-31-2022, 06:20 PM   #37
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As I understand it, oil to water heat transfer is better than oil to air transfer. Is there some way to estimate the size of an air cooler vs the size of a water cooler.


I have a JR dual rad. At my last event I was running the same oil temps as a guy that had an oil to air (I don't know what brand or size).
Air to Air will have more capacity and better temps. But on my Gen 1 using my JR Dual Rad and NA I have not any concerns at the tracks I run here in SoCal with my setup. Adding boost or more heat the Dual Rad will not be able to keep up.
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Old 07-31-2022, 07:04 PM   #38
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The coil packs mount to the valve cover and sit inside a tube, all of which are awash in oil, not engine coolant.
Shouldn't be much oil residing between the valve cover and cylinder head... But anyway, if the coils work reliably given the conditions, so what?

Quote:
Your experience alone is a strong argument. I cringe waiting for the bad news but you just keep motoring along. Gotta hand it to you for sticking to it.
Honestly I'm not that worried. If/when I have a failure I'll diagnose, but IMO people on these forum have been *way* too eager to suggest that any and all engine failures have been due to "high oil temps". To the extent that a guy who had such effective oil cooling that he had it down to ~225F and had a failure and *still* thought it was due to "high" oil temperature!

Quote:
The temperature disparity you mention wasn't reported as an actual difference. KillerB observed a difference between their calibrated sensors and the factory sensor. I more wonder about the actual temperature rise as the oil circulates through the block after being cooled. I don't know if you know about my oil cooler. It's just a long-running experiment in measuring what it takes to control temps in the widest operating conditions.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I think these engines (particularly earlier ones) have had failures due to poor oil delivery, not "high" oil temperatures.

275F is not a problem for any decent synthetic oil. 30wt synth at 275F has about the same viscosity as factory 0w20 at 250F In my experience oil temperature in the gen1 climbs up towards 270-275F, but reliably holds there, never goes into runaway overheating. I honestly think some are *adding* risk (and $$$ expended) getting oil coolers for these cars. IMO our cars are fricking *good to go* for track usage, as delivered.
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Old 07-31-2022, 07:37 PM   #39
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What race team allows for 320F?

Have you ever seen the rod bearings on a S65 with that kind of use with and without a properly sized oil cooler?

Why do you think that BMW went to a thinner oil with more bearing load (boost)?
Can’t remember the teams. Discussion was had at a GT World Endurance Championship Race in NL and earlier with the engineering sides at M1, Motul, and Liqui Moly. The latter was an aside conversation while selecting industrial lubricants for professional use.

Bearing issues with the S65 are independent of the oil temps. They are theoretically related to insufficient bearing clearance, and yes I’ve seen hundreds of examples. Extra clearanced bearings often showed normal or minimal wear. OEM spec always showed excessive wear including ones operated at temps believed to be the magic temps discussed here.

I assume BMW engineered robust cooling to accommodate the lower viscosity needed to meet fuel economy goals for situations where boosted M cars were going to be operated at full or close to full pace. Oil temps in the S55 rarely deviated much street to track in mine and others experience.

If one were to run an FA20 at full race pace then a cooler may make sense, but not for the street and not for us weekend warriors. And if in race pace temps are not going north of say 280F I’d question the need for one more failure point with adding a cooler. Oils and engines can handle these temps today unless the flat engines have a weakness that other designs don’t. My educated opinion of course.
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Old 07-31-2022, 07:47 PM   #40
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Shouldn't be much oil residing between the valve cover and cylinder head.
I regret trying to engage in a good-faith discussion. Carry on, sir.
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Old 08-01-2022, 09:48 AM   #41
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You guys just need to test and measure if you want to change brands/weights. KNOW you're making a change in a positive direction. There are so many factors that contribute to best oil for YOU, there is no one right answer.

FWIW most Nascar engines use 0w-20, but depending on conditions, will go down to 0W-5.
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Old 08-02-2022, 08:21 AM   #42
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I regret trying to engage in a good-faith discussion. Carry on, sir.
??? Do you really think I'm not making my arguments "in good faith"? :'(

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Originally Posted by Ultramaroon View Post
The coil packs mount to the valve cover and sit inside a tube, all of which are awash in oil, not engine coolant. I agree with you that "might last longer" isn't a compelling argument but that's not exactly what I said. The effects of wide swings in temperature on running components are well known.
Are they? Do we really have data to show reliability/lifetime vs. oil temps for components like coil packs?

Quote:
Your experience alone is a strong argument. I cringe waiting for the bad news but you just keep motoring along. Gotta hand it to you for sticking to it.
Like I said, I looked into it pretty extensively and it honestly seemed to me like the bearing failures people experienced with the earlier cars weren't related to "high" oil temperatures, as plenty of people were having these failures *with* oil coolers. One guy even had his oil temps down to 225F and still had a bearing failure, was trying to figure out how to get even cooler than that!

Quote:
The temperature disparity you mention wasn't reported as an actual difference. KillerB observed a difference between their calibrated sensors and the factory sensor.
Not uncommon for automakers to calculate/estimate oil temps based on sump temp and other factors. C7 Corvettes would report 320F oil temp under track usage with sensor/sump temp of 285F. It does seem that with our cars the reported temp is perhaps conservatively high relative to sump temp. Personally I wouldn't even be bothered at 275F actual sump temp with good synthetic 5w30, so if it's really 255F I'm even more OK with that.

Quote:
I more wonder about the actual temperature rise as the oil circulates through the block after being cooled. I don't know if you know about my oil cooler. It's just a long-running experiment in measuring what it takes to control temps in the widest operating conditions.
IMO, oil temps are already well controlled. After I'd done research and decided to do my first track day with the car without an oil cooler, I monitored oil temp and watched it climb over the first couple of laps. At that point I figured I'd bring it in once the oil temp got up to 275F indicated to avoid runaway overheating. But it stopped at just over 270F indicated and held there. It's always held there for me no matter what the ambient temps. If it had continued to climb, I probably would have gotten an oil cooler.

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Shouldn't be much oil residing between the valve cover and cylinder head... But anyway, if the coils work reliably given the conditions, so what?
I'll stand by this. The volume between valve cover and head shouldn't be "full of oil". I *think* that block temp and valve cover temp should track more with coolant temps than oil temps. But in any case the '15+ coil packs seem to be very reliable for track usage with or without an oil cooler. If/when one fails I'll replace it, perhaps replace all of them and figure I'm good for the next 40+ track days and 70k miles.
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