To wing or not to wing

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Aero mods are a touchy subject for these cars, they don't really have the power to push past the drag penalty incurred by meaningful amounts of downforce so most people would suggest that you do what you can to increase and tune mechanical grip before you start playing around with aero. I'd certainly spend my money on suspension and tire upgrades before I did anything with aero.

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Power isn't the issue. It's more about the travelled speeds. When you're dealing with speeds in excess of 80 mph the wing can help however it needs to be balanced out with some front aero otherwise these cars get understeer. That was my experience. The rear wing needs to be adjusted with a low angle of attack. There is a balance of too much downforce and speed loss with too much wing angle. The tracks I run the added downforce has been great. The car is PLANTED. Speaking of tracks, if the track is low speed then the wing and aero is pretty much useless. Autocross, forget it.

Overall I'd say to learn the car first in it's stock form and build from there with aero being the last thing you add.

[CrowsFeast]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

The car is certainly faster with it, but there are issues with adding a wing I didn’t think about dealing with that I am still sorting out now.

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Even though I am running a smaller wing and splitter setup I didn't anticipate how much higher the loads would be and my current suspension setup is not up to the task. So even though the car ended up around 2 sec a lap quicker at most tracks, it's a handful in some situations and really hasn't had all it's performance unlocked.

Are there issues beyond the unexpected suspension loads that you're dealing with?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by villainous_frx

Thanks for the advice, I strapped a Spruce Goose to both ends of my car

Well there's your problem!
Spruce Goose is a flying boat and will lift on a wet track.
If you are not very careful you will put the rear end into the wall on take off!!!!!

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by CrowsFeast

Are there issues beyond the unexpected suspension loads that you're dealing with?

More instances of fuel starvation and oil starvation.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by TommyW

Power isn't the issue. It's more about the travelled speeds. When you're dealing with speeds in excess of 80 mph the wing can help however it needs to be balanced out with some front aero otherwise these cars get understeer. That was my experience. The rear wing needs to be adjusted with a low angle of attack. There is a balance of too much downforce and speed loss with too much wing angle. The tracks I run the added downforce has been great. The car is PLANTED. Speaking of tracks, if the track is low speed then the wing and aero is pretty much useless. Autocross, forget it.

Overall I'd say to learn the car first in it's stock form and build from there with aero being the last thing you add.

You are looking at aero the wrong way. The lower the speeds of a particular track, the more aero you need, not less. Autocross needs stupid amounts of aero. Also, a "planted" car is usually not that fast, an agile car that rotates well isnt "planted". A planted car is easier to drive and inspires more confidence on the driver, which usually lead to novice and intermediate drivers pushing more and getting better times thus thinking that planted is faster (but its not).

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

You are looking at aero the wrong way. The lower the speeds of a particular track, the more aero you need, not less. Autocross needs stupid amounts of aero. Also, a "planted" car is usually not that fast, an agile car that rotates well isnt "planted". A planted car is easier to drive and inspires more confidence on the driver, which usually lead to novice and intermediate drivers pushing more and getting better times thus thinking that planted is faster (but its not).

Go to an autocross event and see how many cars have aero, very very few, for a reason. As far as planted, in fast corners (80+) you want planted, predictable. In corners where you're using rotation you aren't really going fast enough for the aero to be working.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by TommyW

Go to an autocross event and see how many cars have aero, very very few, for a reason.

Yeah, classing. Aero is typically on the higher dollar, higher end, less participated in classes.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by TommyW

Go to an autocross event and see how many cars have aero, very very few, for a reason. As far as planted, in fast corners (80+) you want planted, predictable. In corners where you're using rotation you aren't really going fast enough for the aero to be working.

Like @NoHaveMSG said, that reason is classing. The whole "aero work above X speed" is not true at all. Aero loads increase exponentially with speeds, but as long as you are moving, they are never 0. Also, if you think unless you have several hundreds of lbs of downforce it doesnt make a different, well, you are wrong. You can feel something as little as 20-30lbs of downforce on your car, the same way you can feel when the gas tank is full or empty.

Im not disagreeing with your initial comment on aero, just the reason.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

Like @NoHaveMSG said, that reason is classing. The whole "aero work above X speed" is not true at all. Aero loads increase exponentially with speeds, but as long as you are moving, they are never 0. Also, if you think unless you have several hundreds of lbs of downforce it doesnt make a different, well, you are wrong. You can feel something as little as 20-30lbs of downforce on your car, the same way you can feel when the gas tank is full or empty.

Im not disagreeing with your initial comment on aero, just the reason.

Correct. However it depends on how much downforce you have dialed in. Too much to where at low speeds it's noticeable then it's most likely compromising speed in the straights so you need to find that balance. Plus as discussed, less planted in slower corners is faster

[Kulebrero1]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I really messed up this with my car. Even though I am running a smaller wing and splitter setup I didn't anticipate how much higher the loads would be and my current suspension setup is not up to the task. So even though the car ended up around 2 sec a lap quicker at most tracks, it's a handful in some situations and really hasn't had all it's performance unlocked.

What kind of suspension are you running? And what makes it feel unbalanced between aero and mechanical grip?

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Kulebrero1

What kind of suspension are you running? And what makes it feel unbalanced between aero and mechanical grip?

T2's with 7kg springs. I mostly need to go up in spring rate, play with ride height, and work from there. The car feels okay most of the time, but on longer high load corners it starts to understeer at mid corner. It looks like I am bottoming in the front as it is chewing the hell out of the inner fender liners.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

T2's with 7kg springs. I mostly need to go up in spring rate, play with ride height, and work from there. The car feels okay most of the time, but on longer high load corners it starts to understeer at mid corner. It looks like I am bottoming in the front as it is chewing the hell out of the inner fender liners.

If it helps, when I went the moderate aero route (5" splitter with tunnels, APR GTC200 wing and flat floor), my 6k front and 8k rear spring rate was also not sufficient. Going up to 12k all around fixed that and allowed me to run low ride heights to generate even more downforce.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

If it helps, when I went the moderate aero route (5" splitter with tunnels, APR GTC200 wing and flat floor), my 6k front and 8k rear spring rate was also not sufficient. Going up to 12k all around fixed that and allowed me to run low ride heights to generate even more downforce.

I have a set of 10kg's I was going to put on next. I can't run splitter ramps or flat bottom in my class, but the group I am running with next season allows down to 100TW tires. I am just running a 3" splitter and the GTC200 but I removed the risers out of the wing brackets so I run it quite a bit lower then it comes out of the box. Thanks for confirming the direction I need to go, I suspected it was the primary issue but just dealt with it last year.

[Matt93SE]

I'm in a very similar boat right now-- I finally have the front end grip enough that I like it, but I've destroyed the fender liners in just a few races.. I'm at the same static ride height I was before, but now it's tearing stuff up. I need to either go to stiffer springs or raise the car.

(APR GTC-200 with 3" splitter as well... KW Clubsports for springs, although I don't know what rates they are. they were on the car when I bought it. I need to do a little research on rates and lengths to get correct ride height before I spend any money on springs. likely also need to get the shocks revalved. I'll have some time this summer tho- next race is 3 months away but I'm fiddling with engine/oiling stuff right now and want to do some back-back testing with that, so I don't really want to change much on the car that would alter my lateral Gs and affect oil pressures in the corner.