Toyota some what confirms Celica successor

[RaceR]

einzlr and ichitaka05, I pretty much agree on everything you guys are saying here!

Ill continue some of my toughs about FF hatches in this thread.. there is a lot of those 1.6-2.0l cars!

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

As for German manufactures have lost sight? IDK, if that was the case, Porsche Carrera S shouldn't of won Best Driver's Car.

What I meant by that was that the Germans no longer make lightweight performance cars that are affordable to buy and maintain. Most of us who are interested in any car Toyota builds will never be able to afford a new Porsche of any kind let alone the Carrera. Even if we could buy it we could not afford the insurance and maintemence. The same applies to BMW and Mercedes.

If cost had been a consideration then the BRZ would have won that competition by a mile. Only in the world of exotics is cost never a consideration. We can all dream of owning one but for most of us that is all it will ever be, a dream.

Give me a MR2 or FR-S that I can drive at 7-8/10th and keep your overpriced exotics that will spend their automotive lives in a garage or on the road never exceeding 4/10th. Nice to look at but I wouldn't want to own one unless I was just stupid rich and had nothing better to do with my money.

[Dimman]

^ I think a lot of people had high hopes for BMW's 1 series. Hoping for something in the Golf price range and maybe size, but RWD. Instead they made a very slightly smaller and very slightly less expensive 3 series. At least in North America. No 4 cylinder version for us, and I bet it was that they didn't want to hurt Mini sales.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by Dimman

^ I think a lot of people had high hopes for BMW's 1 series. Hoping for something in the Golf price range and maybe size, but RWD. Instead they made a very slightly smaller and very slightly less expensive 3 series. At least in North America. No 4 cylinder version for us, and I bet it was that they didn't want to hurt Mini sales.

You've pretty much nailed it. In BMW enthusiast circles people were hoping for a return to BMW's roots, epitomized by the E30. The 1-series was much anticipated and then a big let-down when it actually came out. Good point about competing with the Mini; I hadn't thought of that, but also generally people were expecting the new car to be somewhere above the Mini price range but well below where the 3-series had crept up to.

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

New MR2.. if it's good you'll see this ad from me "FS: 2013 WRB BRZ Limited".

If so, you may see a PM from us saying "WTB: WRB BRZ."

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by midenginebias

The MR2, but it will be interesting how light they'll make it and what design language they want to express. Gen I and Gen III were of the lightweight, minimal, short wheelbase group, while Gen II is more in line with the FR-S, just with a mid engine setup.

I'll be impressed if they use the 2AR-FE engine out of the 2013 Scion TC to just undercut the FR-S's engine output, but I think they'll use the 2AZ-FE for more of a power cushion. Either engine in a lighter platform should provide ~160hp and 25/33mpg with related drivetrain gearing.

What. The North American Camry does not even use a 2AZ anymore. The 2AZ is dead. And good riddance, I don't want an engine designed in the previous millenium.

Also, the 2AR is 2.5L. It's too big for a medium-lightweight car, seeing how they went with a 2.0 for the BRZ.

The 1NZ is their current small car workhorse, having being produced for 15 years (only Toyota can get away with this lol). Seeing how they put it in the Prius C and tacked on some EGR and stuff, it seems like they'll be using it forever I do think it'll be going out soon though, their age is showing. NR/ZR families have a much more efficient design apparently. The 1NR looks a whole lot better on paper technologically, but they don't have a larger displacement one for the NA market. It's nice that they were able to include several fuel saving features and keep the service weight the same as the 1NZ. They've also got the ZR engines, but I don't think any 1.6L variants are in the US.

The thing is this, let's say the car comes in 5 years. That's 2017-2018 ish. By that time the ZR and NR families will be 10 years old, about time for replacement depending on how successful Toyota deems their design. The ZR family already has a whole bunch of engines, whereas the only "serious" NR is the 1NR-FE. For that reason I think if the new MR2 follows a Gen1/3 lightweight formula it'll either have a NR/ZR successor engine, or it'll have a newer NR that perhaps replaces the current NZ applications.

I'm hoping it's an all out minimalist lightweight design There's something neat about a midengined car that's cheap enough to not feel bad about doing a little wrenching on here and there, and as a fellow MR2 Spyder owner I'm sure you understand how there's something neat about having the smallest car on the road next to an Elise. However this time Toyota, kill the power steering and use that space to enlarge the frunk please, and then make it a targa top if it has to be convertible, and ditch the whole cubby arrangement for just an open parcel shelf. The way the current parcel shelf is, the trim pieces here and there take up about the same volume as there is volume for luggage!

Oh and, I don't mind a halfassed engine choice, but please if you're going through the trouble of making a 1ZZ-FED with lightened rods, why not just grab some proper forged rods for a minimal increase in cost and rev it out a little more?

[track_warrior]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

New MR2.. if it's good you'll see this ad from me "FS: 2013 WRB BRZ Limited".

Why not get both FR-S Daily, MR2 lightweight track monster.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by pcasso87

Why not get both FR-S Daily, MR2 lightweight track monster.

wut. what's practicality?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Your opinion, which side MR2 to be? Cheaper than 86 or expensive than 86?

More expensive.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by pcasso87

Why not get both FR-S Daily, MR2 lightweight track monster.

Already have a dedicated racecar so both would be street and HPDE cars only. No need for that many cars

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

More expensive.

Yea, dedicated lightweight MR platform=inherently more expensive, same price would mean a step down in quality/performance/etc. That's what product differentiation is all about, customers can get something a little different for a little more money.

Though I prefer that they try to keep the power down and not get too fancy when they have a bigger budget to work with. Match the current Miata while undercutting the weight. If the new Miata keeps the power levels the same while lightening up, then match the Miata.

[midenginebias]

Oh and, I don't mind a halfassed engine choice, but please if you're going through the trouble of making a 1ZZ-FED with lightened rods, why not just grab some proper forged rods for a minimal increase in cost and rev it out a little more?

Considering Camry and Celica motors have been used in the mr2 before, utilizing any 4 cylinder within the stable without having to make a new motor is the typical option to save on costs.

But seriously, the 2zz should be in the MKIII mr2. Nothing else.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by midenginebias

Considering Camry and Celica motors have been used in the mr2 before, utilizing any 4 cylinder within the stable without having to make a new motor is the typical option to save on costs.

But seriously, the 2zz should be in the MKIII mr2. Nothing else.

Yea, but the larger motors were used in the larger mk II only. Japanese manufacturers, especially Toyota, tend to try to be a bit conservative in the displacement department since 1.6L-2.0L is a common displacement tax bracket. The MR-S had 1.8L for 1 ton of mass to move around. The FRS on the other hand has 2.0L for 1.3 tons. See where I'm getting? 2.5L is total overkill for a 1 ton car, but for a 1.3ton car it's about right, if you want a decently torquey ride.

What I'm saying is the current stable doesn't look like it'll make it into a new sports car but I might be wrong. Like I said they do need a new 1.5L engine in their lineup soon, and they've got a decent design to work off of (the 1NR). An updated 1.5L engine that's more efficient (and thus will make more torque if they try to keep the performance/economy balance the same) can pump out a reasonable amount of power for a super lightweight. The 1NR is making 75hp/L at 6000rpm, which is not bad. A larger motor should do a tiny bit better since 1.33L is really small for a 4 cylinder. Bump the power peak up a little in the rev range to say 7000, it should be easy to match the original 130-138hp of the 1ZZ. I'm biased though, since I think more revs and less power is more fun lol. Of course, FI+downsizing will be pretty popular by that time and a factory supercharger bumping power up to 150-160hp should be good enough for most people. Lean out the rich factory tune and you'll be nearly at 2ZZ power with no physical modifications and no "overclocking" the rev limiter.

A 1.5L drops about 100lbs in engine weight alone, and the lower torque reduces the transmission's required torque capacity as well. The lower displacement should make getting 40mpg+ a breeze, which is a big plus.

[ashtray]

I hope the cheaper sports car is also RWD with a bunch of hp (so kids can wreck those instead of the GT86's...).

New Supra? Hmm... Could they do a 400hp 2+2 under 3,400lbs?

Somehow I'm not seeing the MR2 mid engined 2 seater as a less expensive, high production numbers car.