The Autocross thread. Got questions? Get them answered here!

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Biggins

For more advanced autocross purposes, what are the performance differences between stock shocks, an off-the-shelf single adjustable (Konis), high quality singles (MCS, custom Konis,etc.), and high quality double adjustable (MCS, JRZ, Ohlins, etc)?

I think I'm ready to move to MCS, but I'm worried about having too much adjustability and spending a full season dialing them in... would the MCS singles be much of a step up from the OTS Konis that I currently have on my CS TRD FR-S? It's a lot of coin for what I would expect a good increase in performance.

If you're going to buy pimp shocks, there's no sense in trying to cheap out for singles. An extra knob can be intimidating, but take it from me (where I went to STX and got like five new knobs to play with, lol) it's really not that bad. After the fact, I realized my fear of knobs has been holding me back.

The easy button for compression is "as much as possible until the tires start to slide when that corner is moving in compression." For OTS MCS doubles you will probably end up at or near full stiff compression IMO (get me dyno plots and I can give you some recommended starting points).

Remember, shocks act in both compression and rebound. Why limit yourself to tuning only half of the shock's motion?

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Biggins

For more advanced autocross purposes, what are the performance differences between stock shocks, an off-the-shelf single adjustable (Konis), high quality singles (MCS, custom Konis,etc.), and high quality double adjustable (MCS, JRZ, Ohlins, etc)?

I think I'm ready to move to MCS, but I'm worried about having too much adjustability and spending a full season dialing them in... would the MCS singles be much of a step up from the OTS Konis that I currently have on my CS TRD FR-S? It's a lot of coin for what I would expect a good increase in performance.

First off if you want to upgrade shocks you need to know how the shock (and car) reacts to changes. No sense on going to Penske if the knowledge isn't there, cause changes won't really help and you'll be on a wild witch hunt. Just IMO.

Differences in shocks car be twin tube vs monotube shocks, inverted...etc. Other major difference would the the shock dyno associated with said shocks, and level of adjustment within full soft/full stiff.

Some shocks that are 2-Way internals can be upgraded to 2 way externals if you want in the future, so that is something you should look at for future if you decide that route.

However, let me put it this way. Are you looking for shocks to make you quicker? Like, if you drive the same from today vs tomorrow do you automatically expect a time drop?

The STX National Champ winners in STX were both on KWv3s, which you'd think to be pretty low on the performance shock chart. 2nd Place in CS last year (Jullian Garfield) was on Degassed Konis.

Shock doesn't make the driver, just remember that.

[Biggins]

Originally Posted by renfield90

If you're going to buy pimp shocks, there's no sense in trying to cheap out for singles. An extra knob can be intimidating, but take it from me (where I went to STX and got like five new knobs to play with, lol) it's really not that bad. After the fact, I realized my fear of knobs has been holding me back.

The easy button for compression is "as much as possible until the tires start to slide when that corner is moving in compression." For OTS MCS doubles you will probably end up at or near full stiff compression IMO (get me dyno plots and I can give you some recommended starting points).

Remember, shocks act in both compression and rebound. Why limit yourself to tuning only half of the shock's motion?

Do you think your switch to good shocks made a considerable difference? I know you've switched to STX since I drove your car, but does your car feel THAT much better with good shocks once you dial them in?

When the time comes, I'll take you up on that offer! Also, hope your car gets back to 100%.

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

First off if you want to upgrade shocks you need to know how the shock (and car) reacts to changes. No sense on going to Penske if the knowledge isn't there, cause changes won't really help and you'll be on a wild witch hunt. Just IMO.

Differences in shocks car be twin tube vs monotube shocks, inverted...etc. Other major difference would the the shock dyno associated with said shocks, and level of adjustment within full soft/full stiff.

Some shocks that are 2-Way internals can be upgraded to 2 way externals if you want in the future, so that is something you should look at for future if you decide that route.

However, let me put it this way. Are you looking for shocks to make you quicker? Like, if you drive the same from today vs tomorrow do you automatically expect a time drop?

The STX National Champ winners in STX were both on KWv3s, which you'd think to be pretty low on the performance shock chart. 2nd Place in CS last year (Jullian Garfield) was on Degassed Konis.

Shock doesn't make the driver, just remember that.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

The MCS doubles (probably non-remote) are the ones I'm saving to get this off-season after Nats... I have pretty good baseline settings for my Konis at the four major sites where I run (FedEx Field, another local MD lot, Harrisburg, and Lincoln Airpark). I recently did the PittRace Match Tour with crazy weather, but my car has never felt so bad at an event. It was like I'd never driven my own car before because it did things I've never seen it do that had me checking sway bar and shock bolts because things felt broken. I was at FedEx Field the next day and the car was nearly perfect and within 0.8 of the older Garfield and top 30/260 PAX (CS).

My Konis are five years old but seem fine, but I've ridden in a few cars recently with Ohlins and MCS shocks, and they absorb the bumps at my local lot (FedEx) way better than my car. Yes, they are STX/STR cars, but I could feel a difference even in the passenger seat.

Tires are the thing I need to correct before Nats because I'm still running V720s, but yes, I do expect to be consistently faster with MCS vs. my current Koni set-up once dialed in... I don't know what time drop I would expect, but I would hope I could find another 0.3-0.5 from good shocks (more or less time depending on lot/tires/etc). I'm still always working on the driver portion of it, but it makes sense to me to have the best equipment instead of using that as my excuse each event.

Does MCS check the right boxes?

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Biggins

Thanks for all the suggestions.

The MCS doubles (probably non-remote) are the ones I'm saving to get this off-season after Nats... I have pretty good baseline settings for my Konis at the four major sites where I run (FedEx Field, another local MD lot, Harrisburg, and Lincoln Airpark). I recently did the PittRace Match Tour with crazy weather, but my car has never felt so bad at an event. It was like I'd never driven my own car before because it did things I've never seen it do that had me checking sway bar and shock bolts because things felt broken. I was at FedEx Field the next day and the car was nearly perfect and within 0.8 of the older Garfield and top 30/260 PAX (CS).

My Konis are five years old but seem fine, but I've ridden in a few cars recently with Ohlins and MCS shocks, and they absorb the bumps at my local lot (FedEx) way better than my car. Yes, they are STX/STR cars, but I could feel a difference even in the passenger seat.

Tires are the thing I need to correct before Nats because I'm still running V720s, but yes, I do expect to be consistently faster with MCS vs. my current Koni set-up once dialed in... I don't know what time drop I would expect, but I would hope I could find another 0.3-0.5 from good shocks (more or less time depending on lot/tires/etc). I'm still always working on the driver portion of it, but it makes sense to me to have the best equipment instead of using that as my excuse each event.

Does MCS check the right boxes?

First, I was also at Pitt Race (Kyle #89 STX). And that site is very, very unique. I think if you stayed for Sunday you would have dismissed all Saturday findings. Surface grip there is extremely variable off of rain. Especially in the old section, it is polished and does not evacuate water well at all.

Hindsight 20/20, I should have threw away BFG contingency and ran ContiSports all day, but I wanted 2 tires and only came away with one because well they are horrible in that condition LOL. I ran Evo school the following weekend there, saw mid 40F conditions and ran ContiSports and had 20x more grip than my BFGs did the prior weekend.

As for if MCS is the right fit. Really tough to say, ask 10 people that question and they will give you 10 responses. I run MCS Double Externals and really do like them a lot. They absorb impacts really well, and their rebound is very linear (my front graph below). I don't know if I totally agree with "If you have MCS run full compression, but just my results and findings". But so far the shocks have really worked well with me.

[Biggins]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

First, I was also at Pitt Race (Kyle #89 STX). And that site is very, very unique. I think if you stayed for Sunday you would have dismissed all Saturday findings. Surface grip there is extremely variable off of rain. Especially in the old section, it is polished and does not evacuate water well at all.

Hindsight 20/20, I should have threw away BFG contingency and ran ContiSports all day, but I wanted 2 tires and only came away with one because well they are horrible in that condition LOL. I ran Evo school the following weekend there, saw mid 40F conditions and ran ContiSports and had 20x more grip than my BFGs did the prior weekend.

As for if MCS is the right fit. Really tough to say, ask 10 people that question and they will give you 10 responses. I run MCS Double Externals and really do like them a lot. They absorb impacts really well, and their rebound is very linear (my front graph below). I don't know if I totally agree with "If you have MCS run full compression, but just my results and findings". But so far the shocks have really worked well with me.

Thanks for all the information and data. I'm still new to looking at shock dyno data and charts for all of this, but I'm trying to learn. I'll keep saving my pennies and plugging through the season.

I'm still a little bitter about PittRace after spinning on my last run which cost me a good finishing position (and more Kumhos), but I did hear Sunday was better with the warmer weather and dry. I have the Garfields locally, but I'll have to wait until Nats to try to see how close I can get to the other NDs.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Biggins

Do you think your switch to good shocks made a considerable difference? I know you've switched to STX since I drove your car, but does your car feel THAT much better with good shocks once you dial them in?

When the time comes, I'll take you up on that offer! Also, hope your car gets back to 100%.

Thanks Chris! Mechanically at least, the car is now in great shape.

Yeah, I changed a ton on the car. But having quality shocks is the difference between being a local lot hero and a real contender at big events. I didn't get the result I wanted at the Fontana pro, but raw times were competitive. And I achieved that by working the knobs all weekend, since the surface was totally alien to me; by Sunday I was pretty happy with the car. Without DAs I would've fought the car all weekend.

I actually wish I had triples now. Had I known I wouldn't totally suck at turning knobs I would've totally sprung for them. There are some people who need to learn more about vehicle dynamics and fundamental fast driving habits before they sink big money into pimp shocks with enough rope (via knobs) to hang themselves. You aren't one of those people and SAs leave a lot on the table.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by renfield90

If you're going to buy pimp shocks, there's no sense in trying to cheap out for singles. An extra knob can be intimidating, but take it from me (where I went to STX and got like five new knobs to play with, lol) it's really not that bad. After the fact, I realized my fear of knobs has been holding me back.

The easy button for compression is "as much as possible until the tires start to slide when that corner is moving in compression." For OTS MCS doubles you will probably end up at or near full stiff compression IMO (get me dyno plots and I can give you some recommended starting points).

Remember, shocks act in both compression and rebound. Why limit yourself to tuning only half of the shock's motion?

Agreed on having the adjustability for sure! I am not sure that running close to full stiff is the way to go. Having run MCS in 2 diff cars, we were running closer to 5 clicks from soft in dry running 800lb springs. For rain, dial down to 2. (Heavy E46 M3). I dont want to open up a can of worms 'however' one good thing about MCS is the support. They are there when you need it!

At Road Atlanta, I met this incredible engineer from MCS (Wyatt) who had a spec sheet and had me go out and see how the car behaved. We discussed the behavior of the car and noticed how it jumped a bit mid-corner. A click down on compression, keeping data and off we went to a completely dialed in car. 2 days later, we had a detailed setup for diff tires for that car! AWESOME customer service.

I highly recommend MCS. With remotes if you are running softer springs as the external can is worth some 80lbs of spring force (with the nitro set to 250psi). I am certainly going to get one for the FRS once I have clarity with the rules (Nasa TT) for next year.

FYI prior to the MCS DA on the E46 M3 we had Koni singles and let me tell you, there is NO comparison. The tires are pinned to the pavement even when jumping gators.

Lutfy

[jwisjw]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Thanks Chris! Mechanically at least, the car is now in great shape.

Yeah, I changed a ton on the car. But having quality shocks is the difference between being a local lot hero and a real contender at big events. I didn't get the result I wanted at the Fontana pro, but raw times were competitive. And I achieved that by working the knobs all weekend, since the surface was totally alien to me; by Sunday I was pretty happy with the car. Without DAs I would've fought the car all weekend.

I actually wish I had triples now. Had I known I wouldn't totally suck at turning knobs I would've totally sprung for them. There are some people who need to learn more about vehicle dynamics and fundamental fast driving habits before they sink big money into pimp shocks with enough rope (via knobs) to hang themselves. You aren't one of those people and SAs leave a lot on the table.

The perception of having "high quality" shocks which can make people a "real contender" versus a "local lot hero" at a big event is very confusing for me. I've been developing our car on SA (which adjusts rebound and compression (mildly) simultaneously) Megan Racing shocks that were revalved only in the rear for a broader range. I would like to think that the price point of my shocks would make it inferior but they surely have proven to be very competitive within the STX solo community, at least on the west coast. Heck my whole build including 2 sets of wheels was under $4500.00 total, which includes shocks and redoing the exhaust twice. Yet, the "top cars" ranged from MCS doubles, KW doubles, AST Triples and my budget Megan Racing shocks.

Adding additional information about our car, our etuner seemed to be slacking and from January till last week, our car has been down on power according to the virtual dyno. The car was missing tons of power from 5k-Redline (up to 30-40 peak). If anything, from my experience is probably to get your car tuned on a dyno from a reputable tuner. My etuner was supposed to be reputable but he must have been sleeping when he looked at the logs originally.

I look forward to going heads up again, though the car has Koni 2817/2812 and a lot more power.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by jwisjw

Adding additional information about our car, our etuner seemed to be slacking and from January till last week, our car has been down on power according to the virtual dyno.

Well fuck.

So you've switched to Koni and are off the Megans now? No doubt the Megans were competitive in your hands.

[jwisjw]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Well fuck.

So you've switched to Koni and are off the Megans now? No doubt the Megans were competitive in your hands.

Yeah, just installed them on the car a week ago. I guess my car is no longer considered a "budget" build.

[renfield90]

Sure, if you've got the talent, you can fight with one hand tied behind your back. But just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Looking forward to seeing how those Konis work for you.

[e1_griego]

So you were on megans and down on power at Crow's Tour?

Feeling worse about myself....

Further proof that talent > *.

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Sure, if you've got the talent, you can fight with one hand tied behind your back. But just because you can, doesn't mean you should.



Looking forward to seeing how those Konis work for you.

Past 2 FRS/BRZ cars that were national champions both ran on KWv3s

Also ran on stock diffs.

Guess they could have won by greater margins with better shocks and an OSG, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

Past 2 FRS/BRZ cars that were national champions both ran on KWv3s

Also ran on stock diffs.

Guess they could have won by greater margins with better shocks and an OSG, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

By "one hand tied behind your back" I was strictly talking in terms of SA vs. DA. The KWv3s are DA so if anything, you just proved my point.