TOYOTA GAZOO Racing Presents World Debut of the New JDM GR 86 (Second Gen 86)!

[Summerwolf]

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by RetroRacer

The brainwashing makes complete sense then!

In all seriousness though, I feel the new cars will noticeably perform better, even on the same chassis.

Your Civic Type R is a prime example, if you drive a 2019 on track (the year you have) and drive a 2020 Type-R right after, the improvements to the suspension, brakes, etc are IMMEDIATELY apparent. I noticed right away how much they improved the 2020.

That’s how the new twins will be to me I feel, even though the same chassis the improvements made will be noticeable right off the bat.

Many people won’t like the new cars, even if improved. I’m ok with that!

The suspension changes were made more for the road than the track. Now if you said 2019 vs 2021 LE I'd buy it, the LE is supposedly 1 second faster than the same year normal car, but the LE has different suspension tuning again and track tires stock.

The rotor changes are a pretty nice and healthy change, but those were heat capacity changes due to 2piece vs 1piece, the pads are the same.

In addition to the above, the 2019 to the 2020+ is still the same generation, there not about to make some HUGE leaps in performance like they did from FK2 to FK8.

I'm excited for these new twins, but boy is that BRZ front end real ugly.

[RetroRacer]

TCoat- I simply mentioned the fact that for someone who tracks their cars, that FOR THE SAME price the PP BRZ was the better buy for the added suspension, brake improvements.
I will always love the Hakone, but I stand by what I said about the PP being the better buy for the same $. Also, Hakone was under 600 built if I recall correctly, to say just as many are being tracked as PP cars is utter nonsense. Again, I’m at the track often, especially in 2021. I’ve seen 2 Hakone ever on track here, but dozens of BRZ PP cars. Again you DONT track your car so like always you speak without any knowledge, just bias.

Also, my credit is phenomenal at over 820, they didn’t “sell the car to someone else because of my credit” but told me they couldn’t locate one mid last year, but only after promising me they could, getting me into the dealer and after running my credit. They then tried to get me to buy another car, which is a common trap tactic by dealers. Get your facts straight, I’m very responsible financially. When I did actually locate a Hakone 3 hours away that was new, I got pre-approved over the phone and had finalized a price with the dealer. They knew I was unable to make it there for 2 days as I was at a conference for work that week. Another buyer came in and offered them more, so they sold it to him instead. Had NOTHING to do with credit. I love the Hakone color, always have, but mine would have had to get modded suspension and brakes immediately for my track use. That’s why I mentioned the PP being a better “starting” car for people like myself. They most certainly aren’t as eye catching as the Hakone however, no doubt.

I never said the performance of the new car will be “earth shattering” like you say. If you reread the bottom of the last page I state how the performance of the new cars won’t blow us away, but that we will definitely notice an improvement over the previous model. Again I know people who HAVE been in the new car and can attest to this.

And AGAIN you bring up looks, which are subjective to each person, who cares?
As stated by others on the previous page your BIAS and hate towards these new cars is completely evident, and you and a few others are acting like immature children, grow up.

“If I actually buy one instead of talking about it”....again if you ever take off your hate blinders and read I’ve stated that I love the current car, and drive my GF’s 19 BRZ PP often, which is why I’m looking forward to the new car, and sold my Camaro to buy the new car. I can’t buy what isn’t being sold yet, but that may be too hard for you to comprehend...

Difference is, I welcome the improvements and don’t bash the new model on every forum thread simply because “it doesn’t look good” blah blah.

Every piece of data I’ve mentioned on the new cars statistically have been FACT, not rumor or filled with bias/hate like your posts. Again, if you actually did research you would know this to be true.

You can hate me and the new car all you’d like. Your immaturity speaks loudly.

[RetroRacer]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

The suspension changes were made more for the road than the track. Now if you said 2019 vs 2021 LE I'd buy it, the LE is supposedly 1 second faster than the same year normal car, but the LE has different suspension tuning again and track tires stock.

The rotor changes are a pretty nice and healthy change, but those were heat capacity changes due to 2piece vs 1piece, the pads are the same.

In addition to the above, the 2019 to the 2020+ is still the same generation, there not about to make some HUGE leaps in performance like they did from FK2 to FK8.

I'm excited for these new twins, but boy is that BRZ front end real ugly.

The limited editions are VERY nice. The local dealer here has one but it’s listed for over $10,000 over msrp!! Someone will still buy it though lol.
The new type r’s are extremely fun to drive, I’m sure you’re enjoying yours a ton, it’s by far the best FWD car ever made.

I agree completely that the new BRZ front isn’t good looking at all, I definitely prefer the Toyota model more, which is why I’ve decided on that car.

[Sasquachulator]

guys the 6.2 ish time bandied about (for the first gen) is the C&D number, not the official number.

After some searching i found that the official time is (way back for when the Scion FRS first came out)

Official 0-60 is 7.3 for 6MT and 8.0 for 6AT.
Official 1/4mi is 15.6 for 6MT and 16.1 6AT.

found it in this thread:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5494

Sounds like this makes more sense if the official 0-100 is 7.7 or so.

I honestly thought ive seen 6.6 and 6.9 before but what do i know....the performance metric for this car is all over the place.

[Stonehorsw]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Yes, *slightly* heavier, 48 lb., +1.7%, which theoretically should amount to something a bit less than 1mph slower in the 1/4. The argument had been that 215/40-18 PS4s would give a big improvement in acceleration vs. 215/45-17 Primacies, and that's exactly what's compared here. If the new car gets to 62mph 1.1 seconds quicker, it is not because it's on 215/40-18 PS4s vs 215/45-17 Primacies.



I'm saying that if it really *is* 1.1 seconds quicker to 62, the main factors are better power/weight, no torque dip (doesn't affect acceleration times from higher speeds but does for standing start), and ~half of that advantage from being geared taller enough that it doesn't have to upshift to 3rd to hit 62.
Weight distribution is going to be close to the same, other factors are minor...

Anyway, we'll see!

Your assumptions to say that the other factors are minor is based on the current torque x weight ratio, which is incorrect.
You would need to bump the GEN1 to this and then verify if the tires and suspension play a factor, as both may not be the bottleneck currently, but may become with a slightly power bump.

Yes, the main factor for the time reduction is the power bump, then the removal of the dip (it makes difference on both of the measurements here) and then other items.

When I mentioned TS, I also mentioned the wheel size (highr inertia) and aero drag.

Regarding weight distribution, this can get worse if they did not move the engine, as engine is heavier( Gen1 has about 5” of clearance on the bay, not sure if due to safaty factors, but it is ugly).

[RetroRacer]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Some quick “rough” translations for you

3:15 Beautiful 86 drift
8:16 86 has a more exciting initial throttle response whereas BRZ has a more linear throttle response
8:35 BRZ has deeper roll in the back?
9:10 BRZ has a very stable cornering feel, no sense of insecurity at all
12:14 86 feels like a sharpened version of the early years zenki 86
14:10 86 has a very excitable feeling from the chassis
14:43 BRZ has a stable feeling, but within that stability you can feel that it is FR
16:45 BRZ despite being FR has the sense of security of an AWD car
17:37 It has started to rain but the stability and security is still very high
17:55 BRZ seems to have inherited Subaru’s AWD philosophy
18:45 When BRZ is made to slide it is very controllable
19:20 BRZ characteristics is not only one of composure, it also accepts drifting
20:30 In 86 you can feel the GR characteristics from the Yaris and Supra
22:15 In the 86 you can sense the flavour of the Yaris and Supra. In contrast, in the BRZ you can sense the flavour of the Impreza and Levorg
22:50 You can really feel the added distinct flavours from each company between the BRZ and 86 with this generation
23:43 You get a grand touring sense from the BRZ
24:15 When you wring it out it is fun as a FR car, but when you’re not the Subaru DNA is great
24:40 In 3rd gear, the 86’s rear still drifts, but in the BRZ the rear stays planted in 3rd.
24:45 In 2nd gear you can get the BRZ to drift but the rear stability is distinct

This is what one publication was able to gather from translating it:

"They report, first and foremost, that the new cars feel quite different from the last generation. And that should hardly come as a surprise since both make more power. The new BRZ is quoted as making 228 hp in the US, but both can make up to 232 hp depending on their market. That’s up from 205 hp for the last generation.

As a result, both get to 60 mph in just 6.3 seconds, which is 1.1 seconds faster than the outgoing models. More than that, though, the drivers also report that the cars are more refined. Neither has lost its sports car edge, but they seem to be a little quieter at idle.

The good news for fans of the RWD dynamics is that little of their sense of fun seems to have been lost in the generational transition. Both cars handle well thanks to their low center of gravity and low weight.

Although both hosts appreciate the BRZ, they seem to have a slight preference for the GR 86. The Toyota is a little more tail happy, whereas the BRZ seems to have a more neutral character.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I don't think the current car takes 1.2 seconds to get from 60mph to 62mph...
6.2 second 0-60 times we see are kinda cheating, they give themselves a 1 foot rollout.

The 7.4 seconds the press release references as 0-62 time, that must be truly from zero without a 1ft rollout, soft launch, or possibly it's an automatic? In that same 7.4-second run to 62mph they reference, I would bet they did not get to 60mph in 6.2...

tS was 48 lb. heavier, and the data is in pretty coarse units, 6.2 seconds given could be 6.24, and the tS at 6.3 could be 6.25. Likewise for 94 vs. 95mph, could be 94.4 vs. 94.5. Anyway it's clear that the tS doesn't get any acceleration advantage from its PS4 tires, not enough to make up for it's modestly (+1.7%) greater weight anyway...

I have to be a bit skeptical of the Toyota press release claiming that big an improvement 0-62. But if it really *is* 1.1 seconds quicker to 60, a lot of that is likely not having to upshift to 3rd, that's ~0.5(ish) right there. And the rest due to better power/weight and no big torque dip.

Did Toyota do a rollout test? If not then that could explain the difference in traction off the line and why the difference with the tires didn’t matter on their 0-60 between the Primacies and tS’ PS4s, but why it did make such a huge difference 70-0 with a 151 foot distance instead of a 164 foot distance, despite the extra 48lbs on the tS.

[WolfpackS2k]

30 years ago automakers put out conservative performance numbers for their cars. And it confused people when magazines (and people IRL) could do better.

Here we are 30 years later and...how is the same thing happening?!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

30 years ago automakers put out conservative performance numbers for their cars. And it confused people when magazines (and people IRL) could do better.

Here we are 30 years later and...how is the same thing happening?!

We are more interested in debating the delta between the manufacturer’s numbers of the first gen and second gen. Either they were conservative and then they weren’t, so their numbers look better on the second gen or the car really improved by 1.1 seconds. If it is the latter then is it mostly the engine or mostly the tires or mostly one less gear to shift into or equally all three? Why was this discussion started? Because AnalogMan mentioned wanting to know what it actually feels like, which spawned comments that it might not be so great. Why? Because one less gear shift could improve times without much change in feel, and if someone already has PS4 tires then they might already have improved their 0-60 time. Maybe the 1.1 seconds is actually 0.3 seconds of actual improvement in acceleration.

The difference between manufacturers and journalists is actually not the focus of the debate, even if we are discussing the discrepancy.

[KR-S]

Originally Posted by RetroRacer

TCoat- I simply mentioned the fact that for someone who tracks their cars, that FOR THE SAME price the PP BRZ was the better buy for the added suspension, brake improvements.
I will always love the Hakone, but I stand by what I said about the PP being the better buy for the same $. Also, Hakone was under 600 built if I recall correctly, to say just as many are being tracked as PP cars is utter nonsense. Again, I’m at the track often, especially in 2021. I’ve seen 2 Hakone ever on track here, but dozens of BRZ PP cars. Again you DONT track your car so like always you speak without any knowledge, just bias.

Tcoat was making a point that people will choose to drive whatever variation of the 86/BRZ however they want, on the track or as a daily, and not dictated by some rando on the internet.

Originally Posted by RetroRacer

I never said the performance of the new car will be “earth shattering” like you say. If you reread the bottom of the last page I state how the performance of the new cars won’t blow us away, but that we will definitely notice an improvement over the previous model. Again I know people who HAVE been in the new car and can attest to this.

No shit. Given that this is a new generation, I would expect the new car to have significant improvements over the original, improvements that I myself am looking forward to. However, it is not wrong to be skeptical of the new car UNTIL it comes out. You only know a handful of people who have driven the car; wait until the car is released to the public.

This is your problem: you are already declaring the car to be superior overall, when in fact it is only superior in terms of performance, stock for stock. Long-term ownership, reliability, and how well the car responds to mods are areas of concern of mine and likely areas of concern for others as well.

I wouldn't trade in my first-gen for a GR86, because among a plethora of other reasons, I find that the improvements are not enough to warrant trading in my car for. And yes, this is my opinion, I'm not stating it as fact. By all means, nobody is going to stop you from buying the GR86, and I'm fully interested in hearing your thoughts both performance-wise and long-term.

Originally Posted by RetroRacer

And AGAIN you bring up looks, which are subjective to each person, who cares?

As stated by others on the previous page your BIAS and hate towards these new cars is completely evident, and you and a few others are acting like immature children, grow up.

Believe it or not, looks are just as important as anything else. I'm not interested in driving something that does not appeal to me from a looks perspective. I actually find the GR86 to be quite good looking if not a bit on the porky side compared to the last generation. However, some other people do not like the car and will voice their opinion by simply not buying the new car. I'd say that Toyota and Subaru would care if sales were not as expected as a result.

Originally Posted by RetroRacer

“If I actually buy one instead of talking about it”....again if you ever take off your hate blinders and read I’ve stated that I love the current car, and drive my GF’s 19 BRZ PP often, which is why I’m looking forward to the new car, and sold my Camaro to buy the new car. I can’t buy what isn’t being sold yet, but that may be too hard for you to comprehend...

Well clearly, it was too hard for you to comprehend that he wasn't referring to the new model; he was referring to the Hakone.

Originally Posted by RetroRacer

Difference is, I welcome the improvements and don’t bash the new model on every forum thread simply because “it doesn’t look good” blah blah.

Every piece of data I’ve mentioned on the new cars statistically have been FACT, not rumor or filled with bias/hate like your posts. Again, if you actually did research you would know this to be true.

You can hate me and the new car all you’d like. Your immaturity speaks loudly, the truth hurts. Enjoy your lawn ornament!

But Tcoat doesn't go in every thread and bash the new model for its looks. He has his opinions of the car and you have yours. That's that.

[The86Minister]

Looks even better than the GT86 and also happy to see that it will be released in Europe.

In my case the "problem" would be the lack of equipment compared to my current car (fully-equipped Camry). Would definitely consider one if there would be a high-end version with JBL, electrically adjusted seats/steering wheel, HUD etc, highly doubt it tho.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by RetroRacer

TCoat- I simply mentioned the fact that for someone who tracks their cars, that FOR THE SAME price the PP BRZ was the better buy for the added suspension, brake improvements.
I will always love the Hakone, but I stand by what I said about the PP being the better buy for the same $. Also, Hakone was under 600 built if I recall correctly, to say just as many are being tracked as PP cars is utter nonsense. Again, I’m at the track often, especially in 2021. I’ve seen 2 Hakone ever on track here, but dozens of BRZ PP cars. Again you DONT track your car so like always you speak without any knowledge, just bias.

Also, my credit is phenomenal at over 820, they didn’t “sell the car to someone else because of my credit” but told me they couldn’t locate one mid last year, but only after promising me they could, getting me into the dealer and after running my credit. They then tried to get me to buy another car, which is a common trap tactic by dealers. Get your facts straight, I’m very responsible financially. When I did actually locate a Hakone 3 hours away that was new, I got pre-approved over the phone and had finalized a price with the dealer. They knew I was unable to make it there for 2 days as I was at a conference for work that week. Another buyer came in and offered them more, so they sold it to him instead. Had NOTHING to do with credit. I love the Hakone color, always have, but mine would have had to get modded suspension and brakes immediately for my track use. That’s why I mentioned the PP being a better “starting” car for people like myself. They most certainly aren’t as eye catching as the Hakone however, no doubt.

I never said the performance of the new car will be “earth shattering” like you say. If you reread the bottom of the last page I state how the performance of the new cars won’t blow us away, but that we will definitely notice an improvement over the previous model. Again I know people who HAVE been in the new car and can attest to this.

And AGAIN you bring up looks, which are subjective to each person, who cares?
As stated by others on the previous page your BIAS and hate towards these new cars is completely evident, and you and a few others are acting like immature children, grow up.

“If I actually buy one instead of talking about it”....again if you ever take off your hate blinders and read I’ve stated that I love the current car, and drive my GF’s 19 BRZ PP often, which is why I’m looking forward to the new car, and sold my Camaro to buy the new car. I can’t buy what isn’t being sold yet, but that may be too hard for you to comprehend...

Difference is, I welcome the improvements and don’t bash the new model on every forum thread simply because “it doesn’t look good” blah blah.

Every piece of data I’ve mentioned on the new cars statistically have been FACT, not rumor or filled with bias/hate like your posts. Again, if you actually did research you would know this to be true.

You can hate me and the new car all you’d like. Your immaturity speaks loudly.

I see you deleted your original post and are now in full back pedal mode.
Good thing it was quoted:

Originally Posted by RetroRacer View Post
So glad i didn’t buy the local Hakone edition 86 manual with 950 miles for sale for $31k locally. Color is nice, but even the Performance pack BRZ was a better buy for the same $. Again I’m amazed how many people pay more for a “color” over a better driving car. Most people who own a Hakone don’t “track” their car, that’s the difference, they just want a car that looks good, but don’t use the drivers car for what it’s intended for.
The new car will outperform the old one on every front.
Definitely prefer the Toyota styling to the BRZ. But will change mine immensely for an upcoming sema show. A bigger 2.4 motor with improved power band and better chassis that’s 50% more rigid to build upon, Well done Toyota/Subaru!
Will sit nicely in my garage next to my 2007 STI Crawford built, and 91 NSX. Sold my 2012 SS/RS sema Camaro recently but I prefer lightweight over HP. Look forward to building a phenomenal new GR86.

I do not hate anything beyond the appearance. Big ugly side vents are big and ugly no matter if they are functional or not.
Not once have I bashed the potential performance. I just don't play the bench racer numbers game and will wait to see what it actually does with that massive 10% increase.
We shall see who has more miles and wheel time my" lawn ornament" or your weekend warrior racer wanttabe toy.
Funny you think it so much superior but already planning to change it!

[KR-S]

I noticed that too; it was gone at the time I first saw the thread (last midnight).