follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Forced Induction

Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


User Tag List
BT, dpfarr

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-18-2016, 11:14 AM   #1289
Freude am Fahren
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Drives: '13 DGM BRZ Limited/'14 Yamaha R6
Location: SoFlo
Posts: 333
Thanks: 46
Thanked 96 Times in 64 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by clayrush View Post
Am I missing somthing? I thought low mpg on e85 and a blower was quite normal.
Yeah, doing either one will lower your mileage. Doing both will be pretty drastic.

E85 is only like 50 cents less than premium around here, which sucks, but some places the cost difference makes up for the loss in mileage. I imagine some cities in the midwest might see nearly +50% savings. But most 86 users go to corn for the power, not the savings.

Superchargers can increase mileage under certain conditions, but again, considering most of us would use the added power, and drive harder, we wouldn't see it. I think even if you drive the same, if your driving consists of a lot of city, you'll also see a loss. Commuters with a light right foot maybe could see gains. Maybe. Turbos will be better in this regard I think.
__________________

-XXR 527 18x8.75 +35
-Nameless 2.5" OP/FP Combo (Coming soon) & Axleback
-SBD 500X (Waiting on coating to install)
-Southbend SBD500X Clutch
Freude am Fahren is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Freude am Fahren For This Useful Post:
clayrush (05-18-2016), CSG Mike (05-18-2016)
Old 05-18-2016, 12:06 PM   #1290
CSG David
 
CSG David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: California
Posts: 2,109
Thanks: 537
Thanked 1,721 Times in 956 Posts
Mentioned: 173 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT86Asia View Post
Hi all,

Okay, since I installed the supercharger, like I mentioned before, I have also encountered a significant drop in mpg now that i'm on E85.

I asked Edelbrock this past weekend during the car show, and also my mechanic.
To begin with, to use e85 our fuel pumps and 4 of our fuel injectors were changed out, for larger injectors and more powerful pump.

This change, inherently, they say, will make it so that your car uses more fuel.

The fact that well, the tunes have to be setup so that more liquid is sprayed into the chambers than compared to the car stock. Specially when using E85.

The best I have averaged in the past week is 17.8 mpg on E85.

I have not tryed using 91 pump gas to see if that mpg goes up, as I am enjoying too much my car now, and don't want it to "feel" less powerful, haha.

But then again, e85 here is 2 bucks a gal, and gasoline varies up to 3.3 bucks for 91 per gal. After doing some math, it does look like we are spending a little more, but it seems it's only cents on the dollar per gallon extra, for the added power.

In anycase, we are definately greener than 91 users, so at least we make less toxic emissions. It's like eating Organic, food is more expensive, but it's supposed to be more healthy for you.
Stoichiometric Air-Fuel Ratio (AFR) mixture for following types of fuel are listed below:

Pure gasoline = 14.7:1
10% Ethanol Gas = 14.04:1
15% Ethanol Gas = 13.79:1
E85 (85% Ethanol) = 9.75:1
Pure Ethanol (E100) = 9:1

The higher the number, the more air is required to provide an optimal mixture with the fuel for optimal combustion...or use less fuel. With E85, you need more fuel to mix with air in order to provide an ideal combustion condition.

TL;DR You use more fuel with E85 for the same amount of air, therefore, your miles per gallon will be lower than standard gasoline.

Hope this helps!
CSG David is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to CSG David For This Useful Post:
BigFatFlip (05-18-2016), Caspeed (05-19-2016), clayrush (05-18-2016), Firesnake (05-18-2016), hmong337 (05-18-2016), Lonewolf (05-18-2016), taiguy (05-18-2016), Trefoil (05-19-2016)
Old 05-18-2016, 01:12 PM   #1291
BigFatFlip
sleep, drive, eat, repeat
 
BigFatFlip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: '13 BRZ, '12 Outback
Location: Sack of Potatoes
Posts: 4,431
Thanks: 2,630
Thanked 3,796 Times in 1,981 Posts
Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by B T View Post
Now that we have the "modification necessary" qualifier for this kit, what kind of modification is required?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heist View Post
According to my shop, fabricating a mount to relocate the core and getting new lines.
^This. Its the front mount bracket that needs "modification" since it installs in front of the LTR (intercooler radiator) and may interfere. Depending on where you decide to relocate the core, you may have to extend the lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GT86Asia View Post
In anycase, we are definately greener than 91 users, so at least we make less toxic emissions. It's like eating Organic, food is more expensive, but it's supposed to be more healthy for you.
Two words: Energy Density. It takes about 1.5 gal of E85 to release the same amount of energy "stored" in 1 gal of regular gas. This is the same reason you needed larger injectors and higher flowing pump.

I would also have to disagree with the "greener" assumption. People on E85 seem to think that its better for the environment and they are dead wrong. Is it more energy independent? sure is. Is it better for the planet? depends on who you ask. Ask the corn growers and they will be all for it (you wanna guess why?) Ask environmentalists, they'd tell you we are wasting precious land on growing fuel instead of food. Ask the air resources board (whom I've worked for in the past), and its just as bad, if not worse than regular gas. Different fuel, different emissions (NOX vs CO2), all the same effect on global warming, etc.

I guess along the lines of your "eating organic" analogy, sure, you pay more and feel better about it, but in the end, doesn't really affect the grand scheme of things

But I'll get off my soap box now... I'd still go Flex Fuel if it didn't mean driving 30 mins out of my way to get to the closest E85 station
BigFatFlip is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to BigFatFlip For This Useful Post:
andrew20195 (11-26-2016), clayrush (05-18-2016), new2subaru (05-18-2016), taiguy (05-18-2016)
Old 05-18-2016, 09:02 PM   #1292
taiguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Drives: 2013 Black BRZ Limited
Location: Denver
Posts: 129
Thanks: 54
Thanked 55 Times in 35 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Just took a better look at my port injectors. The passenger side looked fine orientation wise. The driver side had both injectors keyed off a few degrees, the metal tab wasn't in between the valley. I twisted both back to proper position.



Now my long term fuel trim resembles a square wave. It's always on at +20 or it's immediately at 0.

Actual log file

Also - does anyone have any tips for getting the bottom ECU mounting bolt back in place? I know I've got some fat hands but still it's a PITA. I may have also crossthreaded it

Hoses all appeared to be snugly fitted. I guess I'll drive it around until my new intake gasket arrives and I find a day to tear it apart.
taiguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2016, 09:30 PM   #1293
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by taiguy View Post
Just took a better look at my port injectors. The passenger side looked fine orientation wise. The driver side had both injectors keyed off a few degrees, the metal tab wasn't in between the valley. I twisted both back to proper position.



Now my long term fuel trim resembles a square wave. It's always on at +20 or it's immediately at 0.

Actual log file

Also - does anyone have any tips for getting the bottom ECU mounting bolt back in place? I know I've got some fat hands but still it's a PITA. I may have also crossthreaded it

Hoses all appeared to be snugly fitted. I guess I'll drive it around until my new intake gasket arrives and I find a day to tear it apart.
Reset your ECU or re-flash the same tune to hard reset. Your ECU is now re-learning trims based on the corrected injector position (and now correct fueling).

You'll notice that your LTFT is only way off when your injection mode is port only. Either give it time or reset the ECU to force a faster relearn.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2016, 02:35 AM   #1294
wootwoot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: FRS
Location: Cali
Posts: 1,558
Thanks: 188
Thanked 461 Times in 264 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I swear you know everything..... Like an 86 Yoda.... A YodiSix....
wootwoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2016, 07:49 AM   #1295
86 South Africa
POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Drives: White Toyota 86 (Scion FRs)
Location: South Africa
Posts: 729
Thanks: 613
Thanked 259 Times in 192 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG David View Post
Stoichiometric Air-Fuel Ratio (AFR) mixture for following types of fuel are listed below:

Pure gasoline = 14.7:1
10% Ethanol Gas = 14.04:1
15% Ethanol Gas = 13.79:1
E85 (85% Ethanol) = 9.75:1
Pure Ethanol (E100) = 9:1

The higher the number, the more air is required to provide an optimal mixture with the fuel for optimal combustion...or use less fuel. With E85, you need more fuel to mix with air in order to provide an ideal combustion condition.

TL;DR You use more fuel with E85 for the same amount of air, therefore, your miles per gallon will be lower than standard gasoline.

Hope this helps!

'Cept, you've forgotten the human element to e85.
My experience is that e85 = more fun, which = more time on the gas pedal than the cops would like = more fuel used
__________________
I like driving!
86 South Africa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2016, 04:17 PM   #1296
Tomcat07
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2015 Halo FR-S
Location: Florida
Posts: 70
Thanks: 38
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firesnake View Post
Hey all, given the space considerations with the Edelbrock, I held off on an oil cooler as most of the available products either required additional fabrication or some level of compromise.



I ultimately chose to go with the Jackson Racing Dual Radiator/Oil cooler for the following net positives:
  • it was a direct drop in swap with the OEM radiator
  • High Efficiency CSF Core (B-tube dual laminar flow, multi-louevered fins)
  • Liquid to oil provides not just cooling, but thermostasis (quickly brings temp into operating window whether by warming or cooling)

Here's a pic displaying the difference in thickness, and the space efficiency of the Dual Radiator/Oil Cooler:


Picture displaying multi-louvered fins


OEM Crash beam clearance with Edlebrock LTR, AC Condensor, and JR Radiator.


The JR Dual Radiator/Oil Cooler fits well with the edelbrock airbox. So well it doesn't appear to be an aftermarket product if you didn't know what to look for:


The lines were a bit tricky, as it looked like they wanted to kink. But after playing with the angle, we found a soft bend that facilitated the smooth flow of oil:


There's plenty of space for the fan shroud and edlebrock airbox:


Once we started the engine up, the lines filled right up without any signs of pressure changes or kinks in the lines:


The only part I didn't figure out was the JR cap. It didn't fit so I just kept the OEM cap on.


I plan on recording track temps during 86 Cup Buttonwillow on June 4th.

The install would have been too much for me alone being a newb with instructions that had zero pop-up pictures for newbs who can't install good. But with CSG Daves guidance the install was very straightforward and makes logical sense.


Big thanks to CSG Dave for the install and a CSG Mike for putting up with my Askholeness during my hunt for an oil cooling solution
http://counterspacegarage.com/blog/p...-installation/
I did this as well. The first thing I noticed was major power loss delivered from the engine. I thought I messed up my MAF position and went to my tuner to have it checked out, but then discovered that the tune was fine and the IATs were through the roof. My IATs went from 115 degrees to 145 degrees. I think it's because the radiator isn't ducted the way the oem one was.

I just put some foam weather stripping around the radiator today and plan on testing it out. To see if that helps.

I think this big bad radiator is heating the air in the engine bay more than the oem one did due to its increased cooling capacity and the intake was sucking air from the engine bay around it following the path of least resistance.

The airbox was also very hot to the touch after a little bit of driving so I may end up heat shielding the whole intake right up to the pulleys.

EDIT:
Also I will be testing it out at Roebling Road Raceway June 4th and 5th so I'd like to compare results with you. I won't be able to log it, just take measurements at the conclusion of each run.

I had the line kink issue as well, we had to massage it to get them to not kink the same way you did.

We also reused the OEM cap because the Jr cap didn't fit properly.

Last edited by Tomcat07; 05-21-2016 at 04:27 PM.
Tomcat07 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tomcat07 For This Useful Post:
BigFatFlip (05-22-2016), Silverfox (06-08-2016)
Old 05-21-2016, 07:15 PM   #1297
ryoma
Senior Member
 
ryoma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2015 Subaru BRZ Limited CWP
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,561
Thanks: 34
Thanked 669 Times in 469 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I thought the air was water cooled before it entered through the TB? or am I misunderstanding something? is the 145F before or after being cooled?
__________________
ryoma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2016, 12:28 AM   #1298
BigFatFlip
sleep, drive, eat, repeat
 
BigFatFlip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: '13 BRZ, '12 Outback
Location: Sack of Potatoes
Posts: 4,431
Thanks: 2,630
Thanked 3,796 Times in 1,981 Posts
Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoma View Post
I thought the air was water cooled before it entered through the TB? or am I misunderstanding something? is the 145F before or after being cooled?
I believe the air goes through the intercooler cores after the throttle body and the compressor but before the runners. If they are reading IATs via the MAP sensor, then it's after the intercooler.
BigFatFlip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2016, 01:13 AM   #1299
Tomcat07
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2015 Halo FR-S
Location: Florida
Posts: 70
Thanks: 38
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Those IATs are the post intercooler charge air Temps. 115 isn't really that bad on a 95 degree day, but 145 on a 95 degree day is a significant reduction. FYI 115 was the charge air Temp the TMAP sensor was reading with the oem radiator installed.

So far the weather stripping has helped. The car is pulling harder again but it's hard to tell if I got it back to where it was with the OEM radiator. The fact that it has improved does seem to indicate that the vacuum caused by the blower was suctioning some of the hot engine bay air. I'm probably going to finish ducting the whole radiator and maybe shield the air box and intake for good measure. Also, those hot radiator, a/c condenser, and intercooler are all right there potentially heating up some of the air going into the air box. That side of the radiator houses the oil cooler which is hotter than the radiator fins so it probably has an effect being right next to the intake opening. The oil is hotter than the water by a few degrees Celsius (don't know ferenheight our car reports in absolute pressures and Celsius temperatures) but I'd imagine 220 degree hot metal right next to the air box intake doesn't help.

The OEM snorkel goes on the bumper side of the air dam which serves to shield intake temperatures from the radiator/condenser heat, but the edelbrock opening sits right above the radiator. Though it didn't really cause any problems with the oem radiator, this new one has the oil cooler sitting right under it.
Tomcat07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2016, 11:45 AM   #1300
Coltonscool
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Drives: WSP FRS, S13 240sx
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 83
Thanks: 9
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Help!!!!


So this morning I was making the typical school run, dropping the siblings off.
And I come upto a stop light and come to a complete stop. 30 seconds goes by, the light turns green I put the car in 1st gear and it shut off. No bogging, no hesitation, no RPM hunting nothing. Car just dies.

And then I tried to turn it over and it doesn't even attempt to crank, nothing at all. Just silence, but all of the lights on my dash are on.

Anybody have any idea what it is?

Running the Carb Legal Tune for about 550miles.
Coltonscool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2016, 11:55 AM   #1301
The Racers Line
 
The Racers Line's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Drives: FRS, Supra, Colorado D, GLC63
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 1,025
Thanks: 752
Thanked 1,515 Times in 532 Posts
Mentioned: 111 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltonscool View Post
Help!!!!


So this morning I was making the typical school run, dropping the siblings off.
And I come upto a stop light and come to a complete stop. 30 seconds goes by, the light turns green I put the car in 1st gear and it shut off. No bogging, no hesitation, no RPM hunting nothing. Car just dies.

And then I tried to turn it over and it doesn't even attempt to crank, nothing at all. Just silence, but all of the lights on my dash are on.

Anybody have any idea what it is?

Running the Carb Legal Tune for about 550miles.

Check the alternator/battery cable, see if something is loose. Of course make sure there is not a hole in your motor, but that would be a odd.
The Racers Line is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2016, 11:57 AM   #1302
shiumai
Senior Member
 
shiumai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: 2013 DGM BRZ, 2020 C8 Corvette
Location: USofA!
Posts: 1,760
Thanks: 963
Thanked 1,893 Times in 787 Posts
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
check battery connection? no clicking or any sound when trying to start?
if you can, take the tension off the belt and remove the belt, and see if the supercharger pulley rotates freely; or whether the issue is with the engine itself. it's a quick way to possibly isolate an issue if they're decoupled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltonscool View Post
Help!!!!


So this morning I was making the typical school run, dropping the siblings off.
And I come upto a stop light and come to a complete stop. 30 seconds goes by, the light turns green I put the car in 1st gear and it shut off. No bogging, no hesitation, no RPM hunting nothing. Car just dies.

And then I tried to turn it over and it doesn't even attempt to crank, nothing at all. Just silence, but all of the lights on my dash are on.

Anybody have any idea what it is?

Running the Carb Legal Tune for about 550miles.

Last edited by shiumai; 05-23-2016 at 07:01 PM. Reason: clarification
shiumai is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Vortech Owner Thread & Setup Questions reyruiz191 Forced Induction 340 05-17-2022 12:44 PM
Edelbrock E-Force Supercharger itsibarra Forced Induction 938 07-31-2021 04:48 PM
Most annoyingly over-asked questions on FT86 forums mit_peid Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 36 01-16-2014 02:48 PM
Brz Info/Specs (helpful info for questions asked often) Gaen BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics 0 05-24-2012 10:09 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.