12-22-2013, 05:56 PM | #43 |
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There is something about the immediate throttle response from na you can't get from FI.
Plus if your talking bolts ons itll be nearly as reliable as stock... Not so much with a turbo kit.
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12-22-2013, 06:18 PM | #44 | |
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I can also identify with @archer in his quest to investigate the potential of the engine non-FI. How can an old coot like me identify .. ?? Story time .... Back in the day, mid 50s, among us "hot rodders", it was a common practice to slip a small block chevy V-8 (265 or 283 cu in) into the body of a 1940s car. Of course, one could slap a couple of 4 bbl carbs on top or slip a "blower" between the carbs and the heads (making it totally undriveable on the street). I decided to see how much I could get out of my old "stovebolt" 6. I started with a 216 cu in 6 and ask my uncle (who owned a machine shop) to bore it out to 235 cu in. I acquired a set of pistons and a head off of a wrecked GMC truck (bigger valves), from another uncles chevrolet dealership. I had the head milled and put on a thinner head gasket. Also, I ported and polished the intakes and exhaust in the head. Topped with 3 single barrel carbs and a homemade header, she was ready ..... After I slipped that puppy into my 1948 coupe; ..... I was ready to hunt for, and blow away, all domestic sixes and flathead V-8s on the street ..... Thanks for bearing with me ...... you too will get old... humfrz Last edited by humfrz; 12-22-2013 at 06:28 PM. |
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12-22-2013, 06:24 PM | #45 | |
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I was certain that eventually the horsepower cravings would dictate a move to the next level but it may be a while since the car is very competitive and loads of fun in its current configuration.
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12-22-2013, 10:08 PM | #46 | |
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12-22-2013, 10:11 PM | #47 | |
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12-22-2013, 11:07 PM | #48 | ||||||
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I personally have your typical shopping car econobox engine that will put out near 180whp on pump gas. With E85 it should hit around 200hp maybe. *shrug* The thing is to get to that point on a econobox engine that factory put out 140hp at the fly, the point is to get to this state sacrifices have had to be made. For instance it's not an engine that your mum could get in and drive or joe bloe without a little practice. What sacrifices are people willing to make to, get lots of NA hp? Quote:
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If they've decreased the compression height (distance between wrist pin and the top of the piston) by pushing the wrist pin higher on the piston then it could offset some of the loss that a highly strung NA build will have down low. Quote:
The stock setup is not agressive when you compare it with the cams utilised by some of the KA20 or B18 guys. It's been a while since ive read into Throttle bodies so someone feel free to correct me, but by enlargening the Throttle body. You would be reducing the velocity of the air entering the manifold. This would affect your low end. Honda (cept there current stuff isnt awesome) with the exception of yamaha make some of the best heads available on the market IMO. They just have incredible flow and with utilising different cam profiles they are able to use heads that would otherwise not be acceptable for alot of there intended audience. Quote:
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People tend to chase down turbo builds because it offers attractive gains for little money in comparison to NA. The reality is that turbo and NA benefit difference driving styles, at least that's what I've found. Anways. My 2 cents. |
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12-23-2013, 06:45 AM | #49 |
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you make a valid point
there's a definite focus on this forum towards the peak number in FI and NA formats and thats never the whole story, if you could put together a pack of parts that gives a solid mid-range gain of 15 bhp but only gained 10 bhp on peak or have one that gave 5 bhp mid range but 15 on peak which would you rather have? believe me the 1st case would be the quicker car and more satisfying |
12-23-2013, 11:51 AM | #50 | ||
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[QUOTE=Ice;1406884]I disagree with this. People always assume that because the static compression is high that there isn't much left before the engine goes bang. The reality is that it's the final figure after cam bleed off, engine age etc that determine whether the static compression ratio works. (My engine for instance starts of with 12.4:1 static, its dynamic is about 10.3:1).[quote] I've never seen specs on the stock intake intake cams. When do the intake valves close at full retarded cam phasing, at say 1mm lift? There are two factors at work. One is based on simple geometry, and one is based on airflow. First is the effective volume at intake closing timing. Once you close past about 10-20 degrees after bottom dead center, your effective compression ratio decreases in the geometric sense. Your AVCS tuning changes your dynamic compression ratio in that way. The other factor is filling efficiency. This is based on the closing timing, engine speed, and pressure drop across the intake valve. This exact relationship is unique to every engine, but basically at higher speeds you get better cylinder filling at later intake valve closing. This is due to the inertia of the air. Beyond that there is also dynamic effects of the intake manifold. Don't forget too that there is compression ratio, and there is expansion ratio. The actual compression ratio is going to be determined by geometry and intake valve closing timing, and the expansion timing is determined by the exhaust valve opening timing. Retarded exhaust valve opening gives a greater expansion ratio and thermal efficiency, but it also requires more pumping work because of a weaker blowdown pulse. Part of the reason why this geometric compression ratio debate isn't so important is because most of the builds we're talking about here are running E85 and thus knock resistance is not a big deal. |
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12-23-2013, 12:59 PM | #51 |
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People really believe that they designed this car with a turbo and then ripped it off last second? did you guys even watch the videos? check my sig
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12-23-2013, 01:11 PM | #52 |
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Best and most true signature ever
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12-23-2013, 01:25 PM | #53 |
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this particular engine was obviously not designed for boost. it has 12.5:1 compression.
however it's a subaru engine, and they don't make new ones very often. i'm sure it was well understood during development that in some applications this engine would be boosted. of course now this has happened. i'm sure they made changes to accomodate this. it probably no longer has 12.5:1 compression, for instance. that doesn't mean the engine doesn't accomodate boost well in na form, though. it has dual vvt, direct injection, great modern combustion chamber design, and lots of other stuff that make it a great engine. i think it's awesome that people are driving around on 400whp boosted fa20's without issues, even if it's only for a while. people who want more will build their engines, but if you're going that far you're probably building an engine regardless of what you start with. |
12-23-2013, 04:26 PM | #54 |
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My comments are not directed to anyone side of this discussion but those two video clips were released by the marketing department. They only show/say things that reinforce the image they are trying to sell. I don't think they offer much value for showing the whole design process.
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12-23-2013, 06:36 PM | #55 | |
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However this doesn't unrealistic either. Be nice to see a cam with more duration and lift. How far can AVCS move the cams? Just wondering what sort of overlap numbers are possible stock. Iam aware of the factors you mentioned was just trying to not make it too technical. Wasnt sure how technical peeps get |
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12-24-2013, 05:31 AM | #56 | |
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