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GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


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Old 05-18-2022, 08:09 PM   #29
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Troof. I never had a problem with my AP1's steering, but '17 BRZ steering feel is far better.



Haha, 100% me too! I went from a manual 240Z rack with ALL the feelz, to an S2000 with none of the feelz but precise and QUICK. Would love to transplant S2k (or better still, BRZ) steering into the 240Z...

987 Cayman steering feel was a *tremendous* disappointment to me. I wouldn't go so far as to say I hated it, but I *greatly* prefer my '17 BRZ's steering. While I don't wanna like the 981 because it's so much *bulkier* visually, I do think its electric steering is an *improvement* over the 987 on the street and track. Unpopular opinion but there it is...

Dude, I was unimpressed with the steering feel of the GT4 as well. I mean, too lazy to look up the rack ratio, I mean its quick compared to most cars, but felt not as quick as an AP1 or a twin.

Don't get me wrong, all still very very good, non-deal breakers, but if we're having a discussion about it, that was my takeaway too.

I think alot of the steering feel mystique that comes with older Porsches have more to do with them being much simpler mechanical machines, with its lighter weight and far less isolation, than having the engine in the back.

Like when I drive go karts, yeah I can feel through the steering the front tires losing grip, but I can also feel and hear it as well, along with the steering feeling lighter. I will happily trade that little bit of extra feel for the fact that I don't get an arm workout or having the car wanting to rip my arms off when something goes wrong, lol.
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Old 05-18-2022, 09:57 PM   #30
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switching back and forth between s2000 and I do feel theres really a dead center or something on the s2.
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Old 05-19-2022, 03:01 AM   #31
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I watched the review and I can say that it is quite fair and even between the two cars. It seems that the biggest difference is the layout between the middle and front engine. The feel of driving a mid-engine car is quite evident. Personally, I would go with a 6cyl Cayman if it was possible to afford and maintain it.
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Old 05-19-2022, 11:23 AM   #32
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Watched them for a while, but didn't enjoy the self destructing engines, which can end up pretty expensive, since the later DI ones were out of budget. Though i happen to have bought another car which also have engines that self destruct, although cheaper, and mine had already blown before i bought it ��
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Old 05-19-2022, 11:57 AM   #33
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Shrug, I've owned a 2007 Cayman. In fact, it was around the time the Twins were releasing, and I ended up in the Cayman because I didn't want to wait for stock of the Twins to be available. I was lucky enough to be friends with a guy who won (whatever the lottery name was) and got one of the first 5 cars in the country and IIRC the first on the east coast. After driving his BRZ and him driving my Cayman, the Cayman is the superior car in every way.

With that being said, the Cayman's street driving in no way beats the Twins. The Cayman is just too capable, and in order to push it the same to the limits the same way you can a Twin on the street, you have to be willing to risk serious charges. On the track the Cayman beats Twins all day long.

EDIT: I say that because I drove them, back-to-back, at Summit Point Main in September 2012.

Last edited by series.trackday; 05-19-2022 at 12:24 PM. Reason: 3
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Old 05-19-2022, 12:07 PM   #34
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I did this comparison last year before I ordered the BRZ. The sweet spot for the cayman for me is the 987.2 base. It received the IMS-less 9A1 engine so no engine booms, BUT it also retained port injection rather than the DI systems in the 987.2S and the 911s. So you get no IMS bearing problems, and no DI carbon buildup problems.

A ~60k mile example with manual transmission comes in a bit more expensive than a new BRZ. It makes 20-25hp more than the BRZ but it also weighs ~100lbs more. 0-60 is basically a wash. No LSD on the Porsche and the stupid long gears are a major knock against it for fun on the street. Add the fact that I can get my kids to school in the BRZ and that it has a warranty, and the decision made itself clear.

If I didn’t have to worry about real world practicality or upkeep/repair cost, I would have gone with the cayman and put in a helical LSD and a shorter ratio. Stock for stock the BRZ is a difficult package to beat.
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Old 05-19-2022, 02:16 PM   #35
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I think it's a fair comparison if it's someone's second or third vehicle, and miles will be limited. For someone's only/main vehicle, it'd be tough to not go with the new car. A few years ago, I damn near traded in a Focus ST for a '06 Cayman S, but the thought of what happens when something goes wrong, and I would have had to buy a $15k engine in what was my only car, I just couldn't do it. The increased regular maintenance costs I was fine with, but that time something major broke and cost 5 digits, I just couldn't afford that at the time. Also, the 987 Cayman is dated on the interior, which matters for a daily driver.
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Old 05-19-2022, 02:55 PM   #36
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Quote:
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The later Caymans (981 and 982) are geared about one gear taller than the Twins (particularly the 2017+ with the 4.3 final drive).
At 7000 RPM,
2017 Twin 2nd is 54 MPH, 718 Cayman 1st is 44 MPH.
Twin 3rd is 77, Cayman 2nd is 75.
Twin 4th is 99, Cayman 3rd is 104.
Twin 5th is 119, Cayman 4th is 130.
You don't have to wait until the "later" Caymans to get that crap gear ratios. The 6sp manual ratios have been the same from the 2006 Cayman S up until the present (base 987 ratios are prob different).

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987 Cayman steering feel was a *tremendous* disappointment to me. I wouldn't go so far as to say I hated it, but I *greatly* prefer my '17 BRZ's steering. While I don't wanna like the 981 because it's so much *bulkier* visually, I do think its electric steering is an *improvement* over the 987 on the street and track. Unpopular opinion but there it is...
Yeah

Have you driven them back to back? Because I have, my 2006 and a 2014 loaner. 981's EPS was VERY numb in comparison.
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Old 05-19-2022, 03:16 PM   #37
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You don't have to wait until the "later" Caymans to get that crap gear ratios. The 6sp manual ratios have been the same from the 2006 Cayman S up until the present (base 987 ratios are prob different).
Well, it is slightly better in the 987 (if only be a few MPH).

BTW, this reminds me that driving the Twins like a dog leg shifter would be about the same as a Cayman
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Old 05-19-2022, 04:09 PM   #38
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While I don't wanna like the 981 because it's so much *bulkier* visually, I do think its electric steering is an *improvement* over the 987 on the street and track. Unpopular opinion but there it is...
Quote:
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Yeah

Have you driven them back to back? Because I have, my 2006 and a 2014 loaner. 981's EPS was VERY numb in comparison.
I've driven them back-to-back on the street and at Watkins Glen, Palmer MA, and New Hampshire Motor Speedway. IMO the 987s steering, while definitely *heavier*, doesn't really provide much if any more *feel*. 987 steering is also slower, and the variable ratio is more noticeable, to an annoying degree. 981 steering feels more precise. Surprising amount of kickback over bumps in the 987 as well.

I definitely prefer the 981 steering to the 987. And if I could have had BRZ steering in the 987 I probably would have kept it...

Last edited by ZDan; 05-20-2022 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 05-20-2022, 12:40 PM   #39
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Well, it is slightly better in the 987 (if only be a few MPH).
Not sure I follow you. The ratios are literally the same. 1-6 and the final drive.
All identical. The 987 does, however, have lower engine speed redlines, which necessitates shifting to the next gear sooner.

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Old 05-20-2022, 01:19 PM   #40
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Not sure I follow you. The ratios are literally the same. 1-6 and the final drive.
All identical. The 987 does, however, have lower engine speed redlines, which necessitates shifting to the next gear sooner.

I was referring to the base 987.1 with the 5 speed which is geared a little shorter in the lower gears (although the taller final drive almost makes it a wash with the later 6 speeds of the base and S).
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Old 05-20-2022, 01:33 PM   #41
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981 went to 1" larger-diameter tires, so it's effectively geared ~4% taller.

The tall gearing never bothered me, really. In my Cayman ('11 2.9-liter) I'd just usually be a gear down from "normal" in the BRZ, no biggie...

So the thing that everybody hates about the 987, the gearing, I didn't mind. And the thing that everybody praises to high heaven, the steering, I was massively disappointed with!

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Old 05-20-2022, 02:50 PM   #42
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I think people just equate hydraulic steering to more steering feel in their head, when it isn't necessarily the case.

Best steering out of the cars i've driven is probably by mom's 2006 NC Miata when she got it. But it might be because i had never driven a sports car before up to that point and the experience got burned into my subconscious. Plus i was still in my late teens and it was just easier to enjoy shit back then.
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