Potential Cause of rumored GR86’s blown engine? Seal packing(RTV) was peeled off

[jkamelo]

Originally Posted by Petah78

I saw this video this morning as well and something came to my mind, what does it look like inside a Gen1 or other makes/models for that matter? I mean excess isn't going to be an issue if it doesn't break off.

Seconded, can someone please scope out a FA20?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Petah78

I saw this video this morning as well and something came to my mind, what does it look like inside a Gen1 or other makes/models for that matter? I mean excess isn't going to be an issue if it doesn't break off.

It is only the court of the internet (including myself) that has deemed it "excessive" in the first place. It may be exactly the right amount and just looks really bad. In post 431 of this thread I showed an Ascent pan. It has about the same amount but in totally different condition.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It is only the court of the internet (including myself) that has deemed it "excessive" in the first place. It may be exactly the right amount and just looks really bad. In post 431 of this thread I showed an Ascent pan. It has about the same amount but in totally different condition.

Hard to say without seeing the FSM for the FA24. The manual on the FA20 calls for a 4-6mm bead of sealant on the pan. It's pretty much 4-6mm everywhere that I recall.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Hard to say without seeing the FSM for the FA24. The manual on the FA20 calls for a 4-6mm bead of sealant on the pan. It's pretty much 4-6mm everywhere that I recall.

OH I personally still think it is excessive but we just don't KNOW. If the same spec as the FA20 then that is way too much since that is closer to 10 or 12mm.

[Panda Grahams]

Originally Posted by justinco

Took my car apart tonight to check out my oil pickup and the RTV job. I autox and track a lot and just got back from a ~1500 mile road trip with 70 minutes of track time at UMC outer loop. So, wanted to make sure it was safe for the future, just in case.

Only 4k miles on the car to date
3 autox, 1 track day

No oiling or temp issues at all, car has run perfectly fine. But, now oil pickup and RTV is cleaned up and redone, without using 8lbs of RTV.

While the separating bead of RTV on the oil pan is concerning, the amount inside the pickup makes me think the loose RTV came from somewhere else (ie. timing cover like the Japanese posts inferred).

[Aon]

UPDATE:
Toyota has decided to honor the warranty claim on my engine. I'm very happy that my situation is finally on a path to resolution. I'd like to personally thank my motorsports family as well as the internet at large for supporting my situation.

The public response ultimately brought to light the elephant in the room that is marketing vs warranty policy. This is something that won't get solved overnight, but I would like to see Toyota regain the trust of the enthusiast market it intends to capture with their GR brand. A step toward this would be reaffirming that track days and similar events should NOT void a valid warranty claim for a manufacturer defect.

I still love the car as it's one of the most engaging and fun-to-drive vehicles currently on the market. I'd love to see Toyota and the GR brand take more involvement in supporting amateur motorsports and the enthusiasts who buy these cars.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Panda Grahams

While the separating bead of RTV on the oil pan is concerning, the amount inside the pickup makes me think the loose RTV came from somewhere else (ie. timing cover like the Japanese posts inferred).

[gcmak]

Originally Posted by jkamelo

Seconded, can someone please scope out a FA20?

Came out yesterday. He scopes a Gen 1. There's no physical Gen 2 to look at in this video.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Aon

UPDATE:
Toyota has decided to honor the warranty claim on my engine. I'm very happy that my situation is finally on a path to resolution. I'd like to personally thank my motorsports family as well as the internet at large for supporting my situation.

The public response ultimately brought to light the elephant in the room that is marketing vs warranty policy. This is something that won't get solved overnight, but I would like to see Toyota regain the trust of the enthusiast market it intends to capture with their GR brand. A step toward this would be reaffirming that track days and similar events should NOT void a valid warranty claim for a manufacturer defect.

I still love the car as it's one of the most engaging and fun-to-drive vehicles currently on the market. I'd love to see Toyota and the GR brand take more involvement in supporting amateur motorsports and the enthusiasts who buy these cars.

It has been said for years that the definition of "racing" and "competition" in the warranty language was way to vague and open to interpretation by dealers/reps that just wanted an out. If nothing else maybe this will get them working on that.
I am actually very surprised that there was the result there was. This same scenario has hit the media a few times over the years and Toyota's response was always "we are looking at it" and then nothing.

[norcalpb]

Dodge has a somewhat similar warranty with the Viper ACR, every Motorsport is covered except for wheel to wheel racing. Although a local dealership once denied a claim where the owner snapped a front shock in half at a regular HPDE event. He didn’t make a stink of it because I told him about my friends dealership that was “kinder and much safer”. Except the next night 80 cars were stolen from this dealership and the guy thought his baby was one of them. Luckily his car was undisturbed in the service bay.

/end random story

[justinco]

Originally Posted by Petah78

So it looks like there is a significant piece of RTV that sealed the oil pan that was torn. Just a matter of time before it could have ripped off and sucked into the pick up. In your case, it looks like you already had some blockage, are you not concerned that your bearing could have already been starved to a certain extent? How did you conclude you had no oiling issues? Oil pressure gauge? And it looks like the RTV was still relatively intact on your oil pan yet the pick up was still blocked, any ideas where did this come from? The timing cover? Other areas in the engine?

The torn piece could have torn when I removed the pan, it's hard to know for sure. The car has run great, from autox, to track, to long road trips. So, that is the only evidence I have really to conclude there are no oiling issues. I suppose there still could be...

No idea where the other bits of RTV came from.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It has been said for years that the definition of "racing" and "competition" in the warranty language was way to vague and open to interpretation by dealers/reps that just wanted an out. If nothing else maybe this will get them working on that.
I am actually very surprised that there was the result there was. This same scenario has hit the media a few times over the years and Toyota's response was always "we are looking at it" and then nothing.

All Toyota had to do was put some text disclaimers on the bottom of all the commercials showing on track "motorsports" behavior or drifting, stating "This type of driving will void your warranty", and they'd be in the clear. lol

Or wait, would that be counter productive to the excitement they've been trying to generate for the Toyota brand with the GR lineup? /s

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by gcmak

Came out yesterday. He scopes a Gen 1. There's no physical Gen 2 to look at in this video.

Looking at the images from both videos, i can't definitively say that gen1 used less silicon than gen2.

[JusTheG]

Originally Posted by Aon

UPDATE:
Toyota has decided to honor the warranty claim on my engine. I'm very happy that my situation is finally on a path to resolution. I'd like to personally thank my motorsports family as well as the internet at large for supporting my situation.

I still love the car as it's one of the most engaging and fun-to-drive vehicles currently on the market. I'd love to see Toyota and the GR brand take more involvement in supporting amateur motorsports and the enthusiasts who buy these cars.

Glad to see your warranty claim is being handled and wish you all the best Aon. Make sure to follow up on the OEM 0km report that they issue and ensure that the warranty claim is filed with the appropriate PO for the workorder issued to the dealership for repair and verification. You should be good with the documentation that Subaru should provide for Toyota on behalf of a manufacturing defect.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It has been said for years that the definition of "racing" and "competition" in the warranty language was way to vague and open to interpretation by dealers/reps that just wanted an out. If nothing else maybe this will get them working on that.
I am actually very surprised that there was the result there was. This same scenario has hit the media a few times over the years and Toyota's response was always "we are looking at it" and then nothing.

Biggest market share that Toyota/Subaru and all other companies are now engaging is Support Services for extended durations. My experience has been that Support production and service parts lifetimes are increasing due to how expensive manufacturing contracts are now. Plus, build up of stock and increased lifetimes of existing vehicles means continued investment of service schedules, replacement parts, and labor to issue to the customer. BUT only if the customer is not been burned by past experiences/negligence that would prevent them from continuing their services.

Just to add to the discussion of RTV, bead diameter varies but I have worked on beads from 2 mm to 12 mm due to necessary RTV squish out on the casting/housing for sealing (peak formation at contact area). Depends on the application, but no excess squish out beyond 2 mm should be visible on the outer edges of the bead pattern or outside on the housing due to tacking and lack of adhesion. Cure time for skinning takes 1 hr and with bake/Hot Functional Test curing rates can take 24 hr for skinning, and 2 weeks for full cure. I'm attaching some reference documentation to the TB1217H RTV compound that Subaru uses and a Dowsil 7091 that is similar in nature (single component, moisture cured, 1.38-1.4 g/cm3 density). Main thing I like in a SDS/Technical Sheet is the details for curing and longevity, similar to the failure points brought up in the thread:
"After skin formation, cure continues inward from the surface. In 24 hours (at room temperature and 50% relative humidity) DOWSIL™ 7091 Adhesive Sealant will cure to a depth of about 2 mm. Very deep sections, especially when access to atmospheric moisture is restricted, will take longer to cure completely.
For most uses, silicone elastomers should be operational over a temperature range of -45 to 200°C (-49 to 392°F) for long periods of time. However, at both the low- and high temperature ends of the spectrum, behavior of the materials and performance in particular applications can become more complex and require additional considerations. For low temperature performance, thermal cycling to conditions such as -55°C (-67°F) may be possible, but performance should be verified for your parts or assemblies. Factors that may influence performance are configuration and stress sensitivity of components, cooling rates and hold times, and prior temperature history. At the high-temperature end, the durability of the cured silicone elastomer is time and temperature dependent. As expected, the higher the temperature, the shorter the time the material will remain useable."