New 2022 BRZ - Italian approach....

[Trap63]

Originally Posted by juliog

What's your point? Both the EU and each individual country (France.. ugh!) has pushed purchasing & owning sports cars out of reach for the middle class. It's by design. The average young person can't afford purchasing or maintaining a cheap new car either. Car costs go up while wage growth has been flat for years (decades!).

Toyota and Subaru know the 2022 cars aren't viable in Europe due to taxes and regulations. They're not gonna spend the money to develop a small, bespoke, turbocharged engine to bring down retail price of a super low volume car in Europe. The math doesn't add up. Meanwhile, they won't have any issues selling the car in USA, Japan, Australia and other markets. The Nissan 400Z will be skipping EU altogether as well.

If we're lucky, Toyota will bring the GR 86 regardless, as they have one of the lowest CO2 fleet averages in Europe and can avoid penalties. Subaru's CO2 fleet average is really poor so that's why they can't afford to bring the BRZ over.

Yes, it sucks paying $50K for a car that Americans pay $30K for. Blame the politicians. Buy used instead. Or get another hobby. Those are our options

Oh and by the time electric cars are cheaper than ICE.. then governments will start taxing BEVs more heavily based on purchase cost but also on miles traveled. Fuck govs

You're definitely right.
But Sergio Marchionne once said that to exist in an automotive market you have to make numbers, and also many. And he was right. Atlantis teaches...
You can't think of living alone only on American sales numbers. So much so that some American companies have saved themselves in aggregation. If you are a conglomerate you have to make global platforms and produce to sell all over the world. Otherwise the business is not standing. How do you make a small European-cut BMW X1 you also do it of high displacement for Americans but it is not that you stop producing it.
Today in Europe vehicles such as Yaris Gr , Abarth 500, Corsa, Renault Clio, Megane RS, are loved and gain market but real sport coupes aren't sold.
Brz/86 arrived, now there is a risk that to look only overseas you loose the entire European market that at the middle class level cannot pay 66k euros of 718 (Italian base stock price edition).
In the long term, I do not know whether trade policy is really performing. Nissan itself had problems when approached models in this way.

[gymratter]

you guys do know we have a new section for the BRZ

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=98

[Trap63]

Originally Posted by gymratter

you guys do know we have a new section for the BRZ

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=98

Yeeah ! Maybe Admins can move this thread?

[juliog]

GR Yaris is a money-losing project for Toyota, only justified by their WRC homologation requirements.

Subaru brand as a whole probably has a couple years left in Europe. I expect the brand to disappear here very soon... their engines aren't compatible with EU market regulations, and it doesn't look like they're going to deploy hybridization quickly enough. They stuck to boxer engines, and today their packaging puts them at a disadvantage for electrification and turbocharging. Unlike other manufacturers of inline-4 engines, they cannot downsize and make 3 cylinder boxers. I expect the new Subaru WRX and STI to skip Europe as well.

Clio RS and Megane RS may have reached end of the line... Renault execs have said they might never get replaced, because after taxes and penalties, prices will be pushed to a level where they would compete with "real" sports cars like their Alpine A110. So I'd count the RS line as dead.


Sadly our best bet in Europe is buying used right when a model is killed and the interest fades.. but before it becomes a classic and used prices rise again.

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by StE92ve

I guess if you want to take away something positive from the Gen2 BRZ is that there are no plans to bring it to Europe. Your only hope is that Toyota will bring the 86 to your shores and have a more appealing front end.

i think there is a good chance. the test mule was spotted testing with the A110.

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

[alex87f]

Just because it was spotted testing at the 'ring with a benchmark car doesn't mean much, especially at early development stages.

One the one hand, Toyota EU seems better suited to sell the car here due to their much better average fleet emissions.
On the other hand:
-the 1st gen. car appealed to a small market, which has likely grown smaller (some gen. 1 buyers may not be the regular, repeat type of customer, plus a 2.4 nat. asp engin will be much more taxed than the '13 car when when it was launched)
-they have no one to share the homologation costs with
-Toyota doesn't need a halo car as much as it did seven years ago, with the Supra and the GR Yaris already on the market

I'd say the odds are split at this stage.

[Lantanafrs2]

This must be the sour grapes thread

[pallen]

Originally Posted by Trap63

I have seen the photographs of the new BRZ and I have to say that many of us in Italy were surprised negatively.

From what I've seen the US response has been mostly the same - at least as far as looks are concerned.

[pallen]

Originally Posted by Red-86

This is one of the key things holding back sales of EVs in Australia. The rapid charging infrastructure just isn’t here. There are like half a dozen charging stations in my city - OK for the handful of Teslas and Leafs sold here each year, but nowhere near enough to accommodate any growth in the number of EVs.

I think something people forget about EVs and charging is that you have a charging station at home. You basically leave every morning with a full tank. Imagine how often you would need a gas station if you had a gas pump in your garage and filled up every morning before you left.

Yeah, you need something for road trips, but honestly, if I had an EV and was planning a road trip, I'd just rent something.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by pallen

I think something people forget about EVs and charging is that you have a charging station at home. You basically leave every morning with a full tank. Imagine how often you would need a gas station if you had a gas pump in your garage and filled up every morning before you left.

I agree on that point. Actually in my case I wouldn't even really need to charge at home. I could charge for free right outside my window at work. There are four employee charging stations there that were part of a new construction we just completed.

Originally Posted by pallen

Yeah, you need something for road trips, but honestly, if I had an EV and was planning a road trip, I'd just rent something.

That's where we differ, even though it is a viable option. I don't want to have to rent something when I have a perfectly good vehicle capable of doing the mission at home, and I don't want to have to add hours to my drive because of charge times. So, unless Hydrogen becomes a real thing, or charge times get to under 20 minutes, I'm going to own one ICE road trip car.

[pallen]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

That's where we differ, even though it is a viable option. I don't want to have to rent something when I have a perfectly good vehicle capable of doing the mission at home, and I don't want to have to add hours to my drive because of charge times. So, unless Hydrogen becomes a real thing, or charge times get to under 20 minutes, I'm going to own one ICE road trip car.

Yeah, it depends on your other vehicles and needs. I don't think we're ready to go 100% EV yet, but I think we'll get there eventually. Once they get self-driving EVs, a lot of folks wont even own a car - you'll just pay driverless Uber or some other car service.

[Lantanafrs2]

For the amount of driving I do and the climate I live in an ev makes sense. However, my car is paid for and has 62k on it so that makes things less complicated lol

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by pallen

Yeah, it depends on your other vehicles and needs. I don't think we're ready to go 100% EV yet, but I think we'll get there eventually. Once they get self-driving EVs, a lot of folks wont even own a car - you'll just pay driverless Uber or some other car service.

Can you imagine that... a world where most people don't even know how to operate a vehicle. It will be like a toddler figuring out how to walk. Good thing I'm not in that lifetime.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Can you imagine that... a world where most people don't even know how to operate a vehicle. It will be like a toddler figuring out how to walk. Good thing I'm not in that lifetime.

Already headed that way and driverless vehicles are not even widespread yet. I read someplace that the percent of the driving population is dropping at a rate of around 2% a year. Doesn't sound like much but it will add up fast.