New 2022 BRZ - Italian approach....

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Agreed on the charging, that's basically the fly in the ointment for me. As I've said before, I don't care what powers my car, as long as it is not a deciding factor in the way I plan trips.

The more I hear Chris Harris the more I like him. In this video, he hits the nail on the head starting at around 5:00 minutes. Paraphrased:

"The simplicity of ICE is that the car bends to meet your requirements. If you have a debit card, you can go anywhere. With an electric car, you never know what you are going to get in terms of charging."

Good talk about hydrogen and other fuels as well.

Some more interesting stuff in his Honda E reviews I posted here.

Chris is really good, been watching him now for almost 10 years. The discussion is good, I'll have to finish it later.

Something that caught me in the video is the other guy saying they are still going to invest in more windfarms.. now I understand the UK is a "windy place", but the windfarms we have here are a bit of a waste of investment, I'd love to see how well they perform in the UK.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

Something that caught me in the video is the other guy saying they are still going to invest in more windfarms.. now I understand the UK is a "windy place", but the windfarms we have here are a bit of a waste of investment, I'd love to see how well they perform in the UK.

He also admits they aren't a solution in themselves though, just part of it.

[boy_racer]

The only way the new GR86 will have a success in Europe is if it comes with a 1.8L turbo engine ,even if it makes only 180hp <lower taxes and easy to tune <priced under 34000€ in a country like France and under 30000€ lets say in Germany.That is a successful formula for European buyers

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

Chris is really good, been watching him now for almost 10 years. The discussion is good, I'll have to finish it later.

Something that caught me in the video is the other guy saying they are still going to invest in more windfarms.. now I understand the UK is a "windy place", but the windfarms we have here are a bit of a waste of investment, I'd love to see how well they perform in the UK.

The windfarms we have here are a waste of investment due to politics and poor management not because they are bad.
They pay more than market rate for the power they generate. Send half that to the US for 20% of what was originally paid for it and then charge back the difference, and a profit to the Canadian consumers.
One of the weirdest scams ever done!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The windfarms we have here are a waste of investment due to politics and poor management not because they are bad.
They pay more than market rate for the power they generate. Send half that to the US for 20% of what was originally paid for it and then charge back the difference, and a profit to the Canadian consumers.
One of the weirdest scams ever done!

Sounds like the huge solar energy field they are building in Australia, which has actual electrical grid shortages, that is going to all be piped to Singapore.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The windfarms we have here are a waste of investment due to politics and poor management not because they are bad.
They pay more than market rate for the power they generate. Send half that to the US for 20% of what was originally paid for it and then charge back the difference, and a profit to the Canadian consumers.
One of the weirdest scams ever done!

Canada has to be one of the dumbest countries in the world. Aside from constant virtue signalling that results in nothing, it sounds like we get taken for a ride with our natural resources.

Alberta Oil gets sent to the US to get refined (they buy at a discount), then we have to buy back the refined product at a higher price......

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Canada has to be one of the dumbest countries in the world. Aside from constant virtue signalling that results in nothing, it sounds like we get taken for a ride with our natural resources.

Alberta Oil gets sent to the US to get refined (they buy at a discount), then we have to buy back the refined product at a higher price......

Hey, we got free healthcare alright.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

ease of charging is not yet ready for mass adoption, especially when you consider time to charge for some vehicles.

This is one of the key things holding back sales of EVs in Australia. The rapid charging infrastructure just isn’t here. There are like half a dozen charging stations in my city - OK for the handful of Teslas and Leafs sold here each year, but nowhere near enough to accommodate any growth in the number of EVs. Also, our govts don’t incentivise EVs the way some countries do, so the retail price is still huge compared to an equivalent ICE.

There is also the issue that as much of our electricity is generated by burning coal, at this stage the full green benefits of EVs would not be realised - we’d just be shifting the source of the pollution from the exhaust pipe to the coal fired power stations.

Sadly, that consigns EVs to a trendy fashion statement for wealthy people for now. For wide scale adoption, Australia would have to massively invest in the infrastructure for rapid charging, including thousands of extra charging stations, massive change in our energy generation to be both cleaner and with way more capacity, and extensive govt subsidies to lower the entry price and reduce barriers to adoption. But so far, our govts don’t seem overly interested.

[Trap63]

Originally Posted by boy_racer

The only way the new GR86 will have a success in Europe is if it comes with a 1.8L turbo engine ,even if it makes only 180hp <lower taxes and easy to tune <priced under 34000€ in a country like France and under 30000€ lets say in Germany.That is a successful formula for European buyers

I agree with you.
Upon European regulations, but also on the basis of the European culture of living the car, a number of general manufacturers have had to adapt themselves in recent years.
Take BMW, for example. The M3 a decade ago was a Sport car and was just a coupe.
Well, in Europe, sports car coupes are no longer lovede and sold, they are emotional and irrational vehicles but not functional and people buy M3 and M4 sedans. Sports cars across Europe are now relegated to brands such as Porsche and BMW (I exclude high level Ferrari and Porsche) but you have to pay at least 80 thousand euros to comply with the regulations. They are reserved for those with high incomes in Europe. If you earn 120 thousand euros /year you can barely manage a 718 Cayman (in Italy we are talking about 6,800 euros of annual taxes that decrease after 5 years of very little). Taxes are high everywhere. Perhaps only Germany is saved. But for France, Spain, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Denmark it is a massacre. Don't count Eastern Europe... have average national incomes of 22 thousand dollars and tax evasion higher than that of Italy. I often go to Romania and see from Lamborghinis to Ferraris and Porsches as if I were in Frankfurt....
Today gasoline in Italy costs 1,53 euros per liter (100 RON) in a Covid period emergency, where the price has gone from 1,956 to 1,530 in two months.
To have the price converted according to the American scheme are 5,78 euros per gallon. And it's the lowest price in almost 12 years.
That's why when the BRZ /GT86 came out it was a great success.
Today, proposing it with an increased displacement (with the doubts I mentioned earlier) and a higher cost will make it unsellable in Europe because we need to add all the surcharges for emissions.In Italy at least 1,500 Euros, in France the yearly overrun 3,400 Euros.
In add, take insurances costs. I am on road since 1986 with only a crash in 1994 on my insurance score (- 0 range now), I pay for BRZ 1,600 Euros per year (mandatory civil and kasko collision) and 500 Euros as local road tax. A driver (young 25 aged) with a 4 or 5 range of score might pay over 2,800/3,200 euros. If you live in Naples or Rome costs are much more higher.
The only solutions is offer it with a more efficient engine not over 2000 cc. This is the reason why here in Europe we love power small turbo engines. These engines saved Chrysler thanks to Fiat techs.

[alone1i]

Honestly, Chris Harris is too good. A genuine car enthusiast.

[boy_racer]

Originally Posted by Trap63

I agree with you.
Upon European regulations, but also on the basis of the European culture of living the car, a number of general manufacturers have had to adapt themselves in recent years.
Take BMW, for example. The M3 a decade ago was a Sport car and was just a coupe.
Well, in Europe, sports car coupes are no longer lovede and sold, they are emotional and irrational vehicles but not functional and people buy M3 and M4 sedans. Sports cars across Europe are now relegated to brands such as Porsche and BMW (I exclude high level Ferrari and Porsche) but you have to pay at least 80 thousand euros to comply with the regulations. They are reserved for those with high incomes in Europe. If you earn 120 thousand euros /year you can barely manage a 718 Cayman (in Italy we are talking about 6,800 euros of annual taxes that decrease after 5 years of very little). Taxes are high everywhere. Perhaps only Germany is saved. But for France, Spain, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Denmark it is a massacre. Don't count Eastern Europe... have average national incomes of 22 thousand dollars and tax evasion higher than that of Italy. I often go to Romania and see from Lamborghinis to Ferraris and Porsches as if I were in Frankfurt....
Today gasoline in Italy costs 1,53 euros per liter (100 RON) in a Covid period emergency, where the price has gone from 1,956 to 1,530 in two months.
To have the price converted according to the American scheme are 5,78 euros per gallon. And it's the lowest price in almost 12 years.
That's why when the BRZ /GT86 came out it was a great success.
Today, proposing it with an increased displacement (with the doubts I mentioned earlier) and a higher cost will make it unsellable in Europe because we need to add all the surcharges for emissions.In Italy at least 1,500 Euros, in France the yearly overrun 3,400 Euros.
In add, take insurances costs. I am on road since 1986 with only a crash in 1994 on my insurance score (- 0 range now), I pay for BRZ 1,600 Euros per year (mandatory civil and kasko collision) and 500 Euros as local road tax. A driver (young 25 aged) with a 4 or 5 range of score might pay over 2,800/3,200 euros. If you live in Naples or Rome costs are much more higher.
The only solutions is offer it with a more efficient engine not over 2000 cc. This is the reason why here in Europe we love power small turbo engines. These engines saved Chrysler thanks to Fiat techs.

And i was thinking that Italy was one of the countries with cheapest price in sportscars in Europe.I mean 29k € for a gt86 and around 38k € for a 370z was really nice.Here gt86 was 37500€ and 370z 60k+€.But i see now that it has high annual costs in your country.

[Trap63]

Originally Posted by boy_racer

And i was thinking that Italy was one of the countries with cheapest price in sportscars in Europe.I mean 29k € for a gt86 and around 38k € for a 370z was really nice.Here gt86 was 37500€ and 370z 60k+€.But i see now that it has high annual costs in your country.

last price for last units was near 30K ecotax included but only high edition not the rock and road edition of GT86 (brembo and sachs shock absorber) near 33,5K. The ultimate Edition of BRZ (50 units) are 39K today, few residual units.


Here you see Subaru's price (but there aren't anymore units in Italy, only the upcoming Ultimate). You need to add 750 Euros about local tax, registration then 1,2k euros ecotax. Sale discount upon dealer policy (2/3 K euros)

[juliog]

What's your point? Both the EU and each individual country (France.. ugh!) has pushed purchasing & owning sports cars out of reach for the middle class. It's by design. The average young person can't afford purchasing or maintaining a cheap new car either. Car costs go up while wage growth has been flat for years (decades!).

Toyota and Subaru know the 2022 cars aren't viable in Europe due to taxes and regulations. They're not gonna spend the money to develop a small, bespoke, turbocharged engine to bring down retail price of a super low volume car in Europe. The math doesn't add up. Meanwhile, they won't have any issues selling the car in USA, Japan, Australia and other markets. The Nissan 400Z will be skipping EU altogether as well.

If we're lucky, Toyota will bring the GR 86 regardless, as they have one of the lowest CO2 fleet averages in Europe and can avoid penalties. Subaru's CO2 fleet average is really poor so that's why they can't afford to bring the BRZ over.

Yes, it sucks paying $50K for a car that Americans pay $30K for. Blame the politicians. Buy used instead. Or get another hobby. Those are our options

Oh and by the time electric cars are cheaper than ICE.. then governments will start taxing BEVs more heavily based on purchase cost but also on miles traveled. Fuck govs

[juliog]

Originally Posted by Trap63

Perhaps only Germany is saved.

I should move to Germany..