Why the Toyota 86 is a Great Car.

[FRSupra]

@regal you should read the 86 Development story so we don't have to hear you cry about D4-S anymore.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by regal

I still am stuck in the 80's early 90's but the rest of the world isn't DIT is magical if you ever get a chance drive the new Cayman and ask yourself why did TADA killed Subaru's brilliant FA20T for our car. With mass production of that engine in the forester and wrx and dropping D4-s it wouldn't have added any real cost if they tuned it for not too much torque. Its a shame really but as you say no car is prefect and hopefully going NA will mean longer term reliability which is more important to me. Also heads up Mike53 doesn't like plus's/minus's posts so have that flame suit ready

Lol.. Again.. You keep saying it should have had the turbo, Tada messed up..etc.
I did drive a cayman and for only 35k more I could have had one. The cayman isn't a turbo so how can you compare it to the twins.. Nor is it anywhere priced similarly. So what's your point? You think Tada should have given us Cayman performance and power all for $25K ? Well that would have been nice and I think all would agree.. But in the real world, Tada did great for what he had to work with!
You bought the wrong car, it's NA and thanks the the D4S, it is able to have a NA power plant with adequate power for its price point.
No flame suit required here.. Just a bit of common sense.
I'm curious.. Didn't you test drive the car BEFORE you bought it.. That's really important you know...

[LeeMaster]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

You bought the wrong car, it's NA and thanks the the D4S, it is able to have a NA power plant with adequate power for its price point.

I'm not trying to spark anymore flames here, but a decade ago Honda provided the K20 motor, a non-D4S type of 2.0 litre NA engine pushing 205 hp.

To only be able to get 200hp out of the new Boxer engine in 2013 with the 'help' of D4S is really sad compared to what Honda did a decade ago. Perhaps a flat four has less potential than an i4, I'm not engineered to know this kind of stuff so.....

However, if the car can make 250hp NA + D4S in this decade that would be something to talk about.

[misooscar]

I think it's great because of the low cost of entry.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[Jegan_V]

Originally Posted by LeeMaster

I'm not trying to spark anymore flames here, but a decade ago Honda provided the K20 motor, a non-D4S type of 2.0 litre NA engine pushing 205 hp.

To only be able to get 200hp out of the new Boxer engine in 2013 with the 'help' of D4S is really sad compared to what Honda did a decade ago. Perhaps a flat four has less potential than an i4, I'm not engineered to know this kind of stuff so.....

However, if the car can make 250hp NA + D4S in this decade that would be something to talk about.

Making a high output engine out of a 2.0L isn't too difficult, heck the previous Celica GT-S's 2ZZ-GE achieved 180 hp out of 1.8L without direct injection. The difference however is the K20 and 2ZZ-GE was developed at a time when emissions regulations are much more lax. Fast forward 10-15 years, they're far more stricter hence why so many turbocharged engines suddenly are showing up in mainstream cars. Lotus would still be using the old 2ZZ-GE engine...but its failing modern emissions and as a result they had to drop it. Going with direct injection is currently the easiest way to increase power while at the same time reducing an engine's emissions. Why do emissions matter to a automaker or owner? In some countries its actually taxed, this is why some American cars like the Mustang simply avoid those countries(for the 2015 Mustang only the 2.3L Ecoboost will be available to world markets) or in the case of Chevrolet and its Camaro...it turns a affordable car...into a more expensive car.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Jegan_V

Making a high output engine out of a 2.0L isn't too difficult, heck the previous Celica GT-S's 2ZZ-GE achieved 180 hp out of 1.8L without direct injection. The difference however is the K20 and 2ZZ-GE was developed at a time when emissions regulations are much more lax. Fast forward 10-15 years, they're far more stricter hence why so many turbocharged engines suddenly are showing up in mainstream cars. Lotus would still be using the old 2ZZ-GE engine...but its failing modern emissions and as a result they had to drop it. Going with direct injection is currently the easiest way to increase power while at the same time reducing an engine's emissions. Why do emissions matter to a automaker or owner? In some countries its actually taxed, this is why some American cars like the Mustang simply avoid those countries(for the 2015 Mustang only the 2.3L Ecoboost will be available to world markets) or in the case of Chevrolet and its Camaro...it turns a affordable car...into a more expensive car.

dont forget the use of multiple cam profiles. thats a pretty big deal if you ask me.

[Jond63]

Originally Posted by LeeMaster

I'm not trying to spark anymore flames here, but a decade ago Honda provided the K20 motor, a non-D4S type of 2.0 litre NA engine pushing 205 hp.

To only be able to get 200hp out of the new Boxer engine in 2013 with the 'help' of D4S is really sad compared to what Honda did a decade ago. Perhaps a flat four has less potential than an i4, I'm not engineered to know this kind of stuff so.....

However, if the car can make 250hp NA + D4S in this decade that would be something to talk about.

At 2Krpm this D4S puts out more torque than my '02 S2000 did at 7krpm. And around town about 7mpg better. I like it.

Oh, and I want to add that 14 years later the FR-S is $4k less than the S2000, and for me a much more enjoyable all-around drive. Yes, it's built a little cheaper, but still great AND it has a roof!!

[neutral]

That Nino video review is what put me over the edge to buy the FR-S. 2 years later, no regrets.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by fatoni

dont forget the use of multiple cam profiles. thats a pretty big deal if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Jond63

At 2Krpm this D4S puts out more torque than my '02 S2000 did at 7krpm. And around town about 7mpg better. I like it.

Yep that's the key. Older engines (Honda's K20 and F20, in particular) made 100+ hp/L using variable lift cam profiles. Lower torque in the lower rpms, but the trade-off was an engine that could maintain torque to 9000 rpm thanks to the higher lift cam profiles.

The FA20 lacks variable lift, but uses direct injection, which gives it the ability to run a higher compression ratio without constant detonation (12.5 vs. 11.0 for the F20/K20). This basically means more torque, but also an engine that won't breathe as well past 7400 rpm due to the lack of variable lift cam profiles.

You can see the difference in respective approaches in this f20 vs. fa20 dyno:



Subaru/Toyota were pretty much forced to go this route because of emissions and fuel economy standards. That's pretty much what killed off those older Honda's engines and what makes them irrelevant for purposes of comparing engines today.

[fang_gt86]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

The FA20 lacks variable lift, but uses direct injection, which gives it the ability to run a higher compression ratio without constant detonation (12.5 vs. 11.0 for the F20/K20).

Combine both systems and we'll have a superior 2.0 NA engine? Can you imagine an FA with D-4S and Vtec....

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by fang_gt86

Combine both systems and we'll have a superior 2.0 NA engine? Can you imagine an FA with D-4S and Vtec....

Haha I do wonder how much power Honda's F20 could have made with DI and 12.5 CR. I would guess 260 hp with a fatter torque curve.

But would still have the same emissions/fuel economy issues, so we'll probably never know as Honda won't build it.

[cy1clown]

As to the original question here are my answers in order of importance;
1. rear wheel drive
2. distinctive styling
3. fun to drive
4. decent gas mileage
5. reasonable price
6. not a convertible
What other new car hits all these points?

Thanks
Jon

[ayau]

Originally Posted by cy1clown

As to the original question here are my answers in order of importance;
1. rear wheel drive
2. distinctive styling
3. fun to drive
4. decent gas mileage
5. reasonable price
6. not a convertible
What other new car hits all these points?

Thanks
Jon

Hyundai Genesis, 350Z/370Z, Mustang, RX8.

RX8 is probably the closest to the twins.

[FRSupra]

Originally Posted by Jond63

At 2Krpm this D4S puts out more torque than my '02 S2000 did at 7krpm. And around town about 7mpg better. I like it.

Oh, and I want to add that 14 years later the FR-S is $4k less than the S2000, and for me a much more enjoyable all-around drive. Yes, it's built a little cheaper, but still great AND it has a roof!!

To give credit where it's due, the vtec system in the s2k was designed to show power high end. Like said above, the power comes close to redline.

Originally Posted by ayau

RX8 is probably the closest to the twins.

I'm going to disagree here. I'd say the Elise, followed by the gen 2 MR2, then the s2000/Miata. I know, mid engine and convertible...