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Old 03-30-2021, 05:39 PM   #1149
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Originally Posted by spike021 View Post
Maybe this will be a poor example.

But you rebuild cars, right?

At some point years ago you probably didn't know very much about the cars you rebuild now.

Maybe the first couple times, you screwed up on something. Maybe you didn't realize something needed a certain tolerance to hold up or ft/lb of torque, etc.

If you posted on forums about your builds at the time, you probably would have said what you did and that it "worked" (I don't know if you did or not), only to later do more builds or whatever and find out there were better, safer ways to do things.

Now you write up a new post about the process, which contradicts what you said earlier.

But people say they don't care about your write-ups anymore because you've changed how you did things since the first time.

Obviously that doesn't affect people on nearly the same level.

But you must agree that when you go through an empirical learning experience with multiple iterations of new discoveries and attempts and results, you find better ways to work the problems, right? And come out with a better build?


Why can't you apply this same logic to the researchers who didn't know much about the virus but slowly iterated on their knowledge as time went on, more patients got it, etc.?


I don't feel as strongly as everybody in here so this is just a purely honest question.

And FWIW, the most primitive example of this is when you're a baby and grow up. You learn so many things by iterating on situations you've come across. No person is born an expert on the world who cannot ever find something to improve upon. A kid sometimes needs to touch a hot object to realize it'll burn them and decide to never do that again.
The difference is in willful deception, opposed to learning new information. In the case of cars, if I learned a new, or better or correct way of doing something over time that is acceptable. If I willfully told you something inaccurate that is a problem.

As you say "A kid sometimes needs to touch a hot object to realize it'll burn them and decide to never do that again", we call that common sense. But we've become a society that no longer learns common sense by experience, we do what we are told without asking why we are doing it. Regardless of what our experience, "common sense", tells us.
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Old 03-30-2021, 05:49 PM   #1150
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Comparing percentages for individual risks of a vaccine vs Covid doesn't account for transmissibility. If a person has a reaction to the vaccine, that only affects them. If they get Covid and transmit it to another person, or 20 others, now there are many people facing the risks and effects of Covid, and they may also then infect others.

Regarding the national response to a pandemic, how would anyone expect all the answers from day 1? The most natural course would involve gaining insight over time and thus modifying our response. What doesn't help is when extreme measures are taken to obstruct the process of learning and improving the efficacy of our response as a nation.
A person getting the vaccine incorrectly assumes they are safe. The truth is no one knows how long the antibodies created via vaccine (or by actually contracting Covid) last. And even if vaccinated, you can carry the virus and still transmit it to others, just like those who aren't vaccinated.

"Several recent studies suggest that both natural and vaccine-induced immunity to Covid-19 is robust at least for the medium term, and even those hinting at possible reinfections suggest it is a rare phenomenon mainly afflicting people with severely weakened immune systems.

Fauci nonetheless maintains that reinfections, particularly from the South African variant of the virus, are not only commonplace but justify maintaining a suite of restrictive nonpharmaceutical interventions (NPI) such as lockdowns, mask mandates, and social distancing regulations – perhaps even for another year.

A Danish study that Fauci referenced to justify this assertion made no such claim about reinfection being widespread. Quite the contrary, its authors concluded “that protection against repeat SARS-CoV-2 infection is robust and detectable in the majority of individuals, protecting 80% or more of the naturally infected population who are younger than 65 years against reinfections.”

They did further observe “that individuals aged 65 years and older had less than 50% protection against repeat SARS-CoV-2 infection” and recommended targeted vaccinations for this group to bolster immunity. But even this finding came with several acknowledged limitations, as the study was not designed to test for repeat infection among the vast number of mild or asymptomatic cases of the disease, or to directly verify whether suspected reinfection cases were the result of misclassified lingering infections.

The study did not, however, support Fauci’s contention that reinfections are becoming commonplace."

Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...575-4/fulltext
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Old 03-30-2021, 05:56 PM   #1151
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The difference is in willful deception, opposed to learning new information. In the case of cars, if I learned a new, or better or correct way of doing something over time that is acceptable. If I willfully told you something inaccurate that is a problem.

As you say "A kid sometimes needs to touch a hot object to realize it'll burn them and decide to never do that again", we call that common sense. But we've become a society that no longer learns common sense by experience, we do what we are told without asking why we are doing it. Regardless of what our experience, "common sense", tells us.
I haven't heard about the willful deception.

Has someone come out and admitted to willfully deceiving the populace? Like did someone say "so and so knew X but told the populace Y"?

Purely just asking.
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It sounds to me like the delicate, metallic sounds of piston skirts slapping against the cylinder walls
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Now, if it was three feet long and you were using all that leverage
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Old 03-30-2021, 06:03 PM   #1152
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See the data yourself on deaths related to Covid vaccines since January 2021 here.
Source: https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html
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A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.
Come on. You're smarter than that.
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Old 03-30-2021, 06:08 PM   #1153
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The difference is in willful deception, opposed to learning new information. In the case of cars, if I learned a new, or better or correct way of doing something over time that is acceptable. If I willfully told you something inaccurate that is a problem.
One of my favorites from the words of wisdom thread.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...2&postcount=41
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Old 03-30-2021, 06:25 PM   #1154
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One of my favorites from the words of wisdom thread.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...2&postcount=41
Lowkey hoped this would be the if you sprinkle when you tinkle one I posted, which can be generalized so well!
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It sounds to me like the delicate, metallic sounds of piston skirts slapping against the cylinder walls
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Now, if it was three feet long and you were using all that leverage
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Old 03-30-2021, 06:39 PM   #1155
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Which part? I’ll wait.
Show me where I said:
That the vaccine was more dangerous than the virus.
That I think the vaccine causes cancer or something.
That I am an anti-vaxer.

Still waiting.

Quote:
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How have you assessed that the vaccine is more dangerous than the virus? You survived the virus, but think you are going to die or get cancer from a vaccine or something? You are running a COVID re-exposure experiment on yourself and others, but think the big experiment is the vaccine? Don’t you see the irony? Are you one of those cigarette-smoking, anti-vaxxers who “doesn’t put anything unnatural in their body”?
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No. Experts were ignored. What country did less and had less problems? We have examples from 50 states with different population densities and different policies and different outcomes per capita, so we have examples of what worked and didn’t work well. Of course, we have some hindsight bias going on, but clearly, the former administration’s general approach to downplaying the severity was problematic, which it later admitted it did, so that point isn’t even contested by them making it odd that it is contested by you.
Not contested by just me, Sweden had a lax lockdown and reaction compared to the United States and had a similar result in infection rates..
Closer to home southeastern states like Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, etc had less stringent lockdowns (and deaths) than Northeastern states like New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and again had a similar result in infection rates. Infection Rate Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...cans-by-state/
Death Rate Source: https://www.heritage.org/data-visual...ates-by-state/

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Your assessment of the numbers is poor. The number depends on age, genetics, prior health conditions, exposure rate, strains exposed to, etc. If we are just looking at statistics, how many people have died from the vaccine? Either they had an anaphylactic reaction or developed cancer or anything. At best there might be highly frail individuals who elect to take the vaccine who might compromise their immune system temporarily enough to open themselves up to pneumonia or something, but I am unaware of a prevalence of this. The numbers on prevalence of deaths for COVID vary by area, but the current metric in NYC is 49,648 deaths out of 8.4 million people, so 0.5897% of society has died there, and 99.41% are still alive, so it doesn’t sound bad, but said another way, that is 1 in 170 people in NYC has died of COVID. Maybe that doesn’t sound bad to you, but it is bad. If we consider just those over 65 then the mortality rate was closer to 1 in 75 or something; it’s been a while since I checked so it might be lower now. The exposure is not 100%, so this rate will only get worse. If we had done nothing then the mortality would have included victims of an impacted healthcare system besides those who got COVID, but it would still be just millions or just a small percentage of society. Meanwhile, the vaccine isn’t killing hundreds of thousands of people in the US or millions in the world like COVID, so I don’t know how you can compare the two and conclude the vaccine is just or more dangerous to you or others you could infect.
Of course the assessment changes based by multiple factors. That doesn't change the overall, combined risk assessment which is what I was referring to. A healthy 20 year old should take different precautions than a 75 year old smoker with Copd and 1 lung. You also assume the exposure rate is not 100%, where is the data to back that up?

How does India with a population of 1,390,036,134, the second largest population in the world only have 162,000 deaths from Covid-19 with limited lockdowns, lower living conditions and less access to healthcare than the United States with a population of 332,427,013 and 563,926 deaths? (Maybe it was the hydroxychloroquine that is taken regularly there for malaria? ) Do you really think they did a better job than us? Do you really think the rest of the world did a better job than us?

Common sense tells me our numbers seem hyper-inflated.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

"Fear's greatest weapon is its ability to blind one to anything. In its presence, we forget there are others to consider, things to save besides ourselves."
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Old 03-30-2021, 06:41 PM   #1156
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Turns out maybe a year then you got to get poked again...lololol
And all those medical provider donors get repaid over and over again....
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Old 03-30-2021, 06:44 PM   #1157
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I haven't heard about the willful deception.

Has someone come out and admitted to willfully deceiving the populace? Like did someone say "so and so knew X but told the populace Y"?

Purely just asking.
Really?
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Old 03-30-2021, 06:51 PM   #1158
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Come on. You're smarter than that.
Do I think that every one of those cases was directly caused by the vaccine, no.
Do I think some of those cases were directly caused by the vaccine, yes.
Do I think there are more unreported cases of death caused by the vaccine, probably.
Did I search for anything else, like serious health issues, complications, hospitalization related to the vaccines, no.
Do I think other issues caused by the vaccine exist, yes.
Do I think that people should absolutely avoid this vaccine, no. They should consult with their medical professional before making any medical decision.

It's called common sense.
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Old 03-30-2021, 06:53 PM   #1159
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To be honest, I am confused and don't know whether it's better to get the vaccine or not.
Consult with your medical professional. Don't take advise or information from a forum, or social media. These are all unsolicited opinions. Understand what you are signing before you agree to it (which is sound advise for any agreement).
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Old 03-30-2021, 07:01 PM   #1160
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I think the point you're getting at is when they said the masks weren't needed for normal people in the very beginning?

Did you see what happened when people thought the end of the world was coming and stormed the stores to pick clean all their toilet paper packages, cleaning supplies, etc.? None of the major media news people were saying anything about supply chains being disrupted, but people went crazy anyway and bought way more of basically all supplies.

I think the point of that was simply they felt masks would be better used in the right spaces (hospitals) and were afraid they'd be running out of supply. Until, of course, supply could be ramped up (let's be honest, masks aren't a typical item that the general populace uses, it's not as easy to ramp up production on those like it is for toilet paper or even hand sanitizer).

IMO (and maybe I'm wrong) the result of going back on the mask mandate like that was more people were out and about spreading it without realizing due to not wearing a mask, which resulted in more deaths and illness, which would... technically prove the point that COVID is actually fairly dangerous (obviously not for everyone, but for a good chunk of people).
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It sounds to me like the delicate, metallic sounds of piston skirts slapping against the cylinder walls
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Now, if it was three feet long and you were using all that leverage
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Old 03-30-2021, 07:04 PM   #1161
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Hey, I'm still what I was prior to the vaccine, a very simple bloke enjoying the thought of some funny little critters running riot in my system.

I'm missing @Irace86.2.0, got comfort from reading his very looooong posts.. where has he/she gone?
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I’m still alive. I just haven’t had much interest in this thread or regurgitating old talking points from last year to the new wacko. I also haven’t really seen much new information about the vaccines. People just need to take the vaccine. At this point, we will have endemic deaths because there will be anti-vaxxers, but as long as hospitalizations stay low, so we don’t have an impacted healthcare system with collateral deaths then that’ll have to do.

Have I missed anything exciting?

My brother is doing the anti-vax thing. My wife and parents should all be vaccinated early April. It’ll be nice to get to see them.
I’ll say it again...regurgitating old talking points...
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Old 03-30-2021, 07:28 PM   #1162
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Do I think that every one of those cases was directly caused by the vaccine, no.
Do I think some of those cases were directly caused by the vaccine, yes.
Do I think there are more unreported cases of death caused by the vaccine, probably.
Did I search for anything else, like serious health issues, complications, hospitalization related to the vaccines, no.
Do I think other issues caused by the vaccine exist, yes.
Do I think that people should absolutely avoid this vaccine, no. They should consult with their medical professional before making any medical decision.

It's called common sense.
What do you think your doc would say about your take on all of this? Have you consulted with him/her?
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