2021 Toyota Mirai

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I’ve seen a half dozen. Oddly shaped, but unique.

This second gen is pretty nice. Looks like the bastard child of a LC500 and a Stinger or something, but in a good way. Too bad performance won’t match the price tag; 0-60 in 9 seconds—ouch. I’m sure that EVs will outsell this by large margins.

Probably because @Dadhawk said, they were only sold in CA.




On another note I read that this car is based on the 15th gen Crown.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Nobody is going to call them out for the seriously tacky name? I'd expect it from Kia and Hyundai, not Toyota...

Edit: for those not in the know, Mirai means future

So tacky but accurate?

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

So tacky but accurate?

It looks nothing like a DeLorean

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Probably because @Dadhawk said, they were only sold in CA.




On another note I read that this car is based on the 15th gen Crown.

I read that the mirai started off as the next gen Lexus GS project before that car was dropped completely, and then this just got repurposed as a Toyota Mirai.

There are some Lexus cues in it (Especially the instrument binnacle area...looks straight out of Lexus) and the fact that the Mirai started off as an oddball looking FWD stretched Prius tank and all of a sudden did a complete 180 on a RWD platform with proper RWD size and proportions and relatively good looks makes that rumor believable.

They wont sell a ton of these because you need a hydrogen station infrastructure to even consider one. And that's only found in some parts of California and i think only in Quebec here in Canada.

[vh_supra26]

^I think there were some rumors in that ballpark going around on the Lexus forums, but I believe the "inside people" said that was just a silly rumor. With the ES growing in size and maybe offering AWD in the near future that it would essentially fill in the gap left by the GS.

[gymratter]

[vh_supra26]

https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-...lagship-sedan/

• Striking, Elegant New Coupe Design on Premium RWD Platform
• Upgraded FCEV Powertrain with Enhanced Performance
• 30-Percent Increase in Range up to 402 Miles on XLE Grade
• More Luxury, Safety and Tech Features
• Up to $15,000 of Hydrogen Fuel Included with Mirai Purchase or Lease
• Starting MSRP of $49,500; More Than $9,000 Less Than Outgoing Model

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-...lagship-sedan/

They managed to reduce stack weight by 50% and increase power. But then increased vehicle weight by 200lb? Possibly due to the increased size or fuel tank layout/capacity?

Good job making a real car out of it at least. Wish we had hydrogen stations in more places.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

They managed to reduce stack weight by 50% and increase power. But then increased vehicle weight by 200lb? Possibly due to the increased size or fuel tank layout/capacity?

Good job making a real car out of it at least. Wish we had hydrogen stations in more places.

Larger platform. More luxury.

We don’t even have enough here in California—just 42. The first station opened May 2014 and in six and a half years we have 42. We have around 2k Tesla Supercharger stations and over 16k stalls on top of tens of thousands of Tesla Destination chargers, and there are universal 3rd party fast chargers too. Tesla went from the first six to 2k in eight years. At the rate hydrogen stations are going up, it will take 300 years to match the number of Tesla Superchargers now. I know Toyota hasn’t sold many Mirais, but it seems like a large investment for something that isn’t well supported with infrastructure. Tesla alone has 10x the stations now of what they plan to make in hydrogen stations by 2025! I feel like unless hydrogen picks up steam quickly, which is unlikely, and unless battery development hits a bottleneck soon, which is unlikely, the argument for whether EVs or hydrogen cars will prevail in the near future is all but concluded. The production numbers now are so stark, as to already reach that conclusion, but this information about the state of the stations is just another nail in the coffin.

For nearly four years, there has been just one fueling station in the San Diego area for the few owners of hydrogen cell vehicles to fill up their cars.

But the California Energy Commission has OK’d $39.1 million to help construct 36 new hydrogen fueling stations across the state, with a portion of that money going to four new stations in San Diego County.


A spokeswoman for Shell said its station in Carlsbad is part of the company’s larger program to develop 51 refueling stations over about six years.


There are 42 hydrogen fueling locations across the state and the Energy Commission’s funding is aimed at helping boost sales.

“This award puts us well beyond 100 stations, potentially upward of about 180 stations open or in development,” said Keith Malone, spokesman for the Fuel Cell Partnership. “That really helps us get much closer to the next milestone of 200 stations” by 2025 that then-Gov. Jerry Brown issued in an executive order two years ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.san...es%3f_amp=true

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

We don’t even have enough here in California—just 42. The first station opened May 2014 and in six and a half years we have 42. We have around 2k Tesla Supercharger stations and over 16k stalls on top of tens of thousands of Tesla Destination chargers, and there are universal 3rd party fast chargers too.

Supply and demand, right?

Musk took the right approach by eliminating (or at least minimizing) the infrastructure argument by building it into the cost of the cars and leveraging the fact you could fuel at home easily for most persons to fill the gap.

Traditional manufacturers were expecting the infrastructure to be provided by others, just as oil companies provide their refueling infrastructure now.

Had Tesla, or Toyota for that matter, done the same thing for hydrogen instead of, or in addition to electric, I have to wonder who would be ahead?

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Larger platform. More luxury.

We don’t even have enough here in California—just 42. The first station opened May 2014 and in six and a half years we have 42. We have around 2k Tesla Supercharger stations and over 16k stalls on top of tens of thousands of Tesla Destination chargers, and there are universal 3rd party fast chargers too. Tesla went from the first six to 2k in eight years. At the rate hydrogen stations are going up, it will take 300 years to match the number of Tesla Superchargers now. I know Toyota hasn’t sold many Mirais, but it seems like a large investment for something that isn’t well supported with infrastructure. Tesla alone has 10x the stations now of what they plan to make in hydrogen stations by 2025! I feel like unless hydrogen picks up steam quickly, which is unlikely, and unless battery development hits a bottleneck soon, which is unlikely, the argument for whether EVs or hydrogen cars will prevail in the near future is all but concluded. The production numbers now are so stark, as to already reach that conclusion, but this information about the state of the stations is just another nail in the coffin.

You actually don't need as many hydrogen stations as chargers for the same amount of cars. To fill an empty hydrogen car is what, 5 minutes? To fully charge a depleted battery on a supercharger is 90 minutes, up to 12 hours on 240, and if you only have a standard wall outlet up to 100 hours. You need 18x the amount of hydrogen stations in superchargers to service the same amount of vehicles.

42 hydrogen pumps (assuming 1 pump per station) is equivalent to 756 superchargers (assuming one plug per supercharger). How many pumps does the average hydrogen station in CA have?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Spuds

You actually don't need as many hydrogen stations as chargers for the same amount of cars. To fill an empty hydrogen car is what, 5 minutes?

Looks like based at least on this article the fueling stations range from 1 to 4 pumps.

I agree on this, plus it could grow organically because it takes no longer than filling a large SUV (my Suburban takes 5 to 10 minutes to fill if near empty). You could literally retrofit one or two pumps at existing stations and provide the infrastructure needed (OK, not exactly that simple but it follows the same business model).

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Looks like based at least on this article the fueling stations range from 1 to 4 pumps.

I agree on this, plus it could grow organically because it takes no longer than filling a large SUV (my Suburban takes 5 to 10 minutes to fill if near empty). You could literally retrofit one or two pumps at existing stations and provide the infrastructure needed (OK, not exactly that simple but it follows the same business model).

Yeah, so if one assumes 4 pumps per station, 42 hydrogen stations can service the same amount of vehicles as 3024 supercharging stations in the same amount of time. (In case anyone is math challenged).

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

You actually don't need as many hydrogen stations as chargers for the same amount of cars. To fill an empty hydrogen car is what, 5 minutes? To fully charge a depleted battery on a supercharger is 90 minutes, up to 12 hours on 240, and if you only have a standard wall outlet up to 100 hours. You need 18x the amount of hydrogen stations in superchargers to service the same amount of vehicles.

42 hydrogen pumps (assuming 1 pump per station) is equivalent to 756 superchargers (assuming one plug per supercharger). How many pumps does the average hydrogen station in CA have?

This is true for full charging, but this isn’t the typical behavior of most people who use Superchargers. Like Dadhawk said, the advantage goes to the EVs because people can charge at home. The average person drives 30 miles or less a day, which is within the means of recharging each night on a 120v system. If people use the 240v, 48amp Tesla wall charger then they can do a full charge overnight.

Most people using Superchargers aren’t needing a full charge from a depleted battery, nor are they fully charging the car. Maybe they have 15 minutes to kill, so they charge half a charge. And of course, it is getting faster and faster to charge these cars, but hydrogen charging is fixed.

Meanwhile, home charging is plentiful, Supercharging stations are plentiful, Superchargers at the Supercharging stations are plentiful. 3rd party fast chargers and slower destination chargers are even more plentiful. They are cheap to install, relatively speaking. Many cities are integrating chargers into malls and business parking structures. In short, the difference is stark.

San Diego has one hydrogen fuel station. How many gas stations? We have more gas stations in Sonoma County and maybe within a 15 mile radius than all hydrogen fuel stations in California. Currently it is estimated that California has 10,266 public fuel stations, so hydrogen has far to go. Meanwhile, there are over 16,320 Superchargers in California, many other fast chargers and over 50k level 2 chargers, not counting home chargers.

The other thing is hydrogen fuel stations are more expensive than charging stations, and they are investing more in charging than hydrogen. It’ll be good to have both, but it is clear hydrogen is in a huge deficit.

The California Energy Commission is putting a “down payment” of $384 million over the next three years on the electric-vehicle charging and zero-emission vehicle infrastructure needed to meet Governor Gavin Newsom’s pledge to end sales of new gasoline-powered cars by 2035.

CEC’s clean transportation plan released Wednesday (PDF) will direct $133 million for light-duty EV charging systems and another $130 million for infrastructure for zero-emission medium- and heavy-duty vehicles, most of it electric charging.

Another $70 million will go toward hydrogen refueling infrastructure, with $25 million more for “zero- and near-zero carbon fuel production and supply” to meet the need for alternatives to battery-powered vehicles in the decades to come.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gre...infrastructure