removable roll bars/cages

[delongedoug]

Yeah, like I said, adding a roll bar makes the car all but un-streetable. Mine's a purpose track car but not a race car, so I can still drive it to and from the track but don't do much else with it because it's so unpractical.

I guess the bottom line is do seats and roll bar and harnesses or none at all. But doing it will make the car less enjoyable a lot of the time and probably won't be your daily.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I didn't say "you need a helmet on the street with a 4 point rollbar", I said "less safety on the street". I.e., any tiny reduction in risk due to marginally greater rollover protection is likely offset by the (probably) less tiny risk of whacking the rollbar with your head in a greater number of types of accidents, including many more likely than rollovers.

FWIW, my Z, RX-7, and S2000 street cars all have 4-point roll bars. In the Z (minimal rollover protection stock) and the S2000 (convertible), they *might* be all-around safer street cars with the bars. For the RX-7, probably not, but required for its classification for track days ("prepared"). Otherwise I might remove it.

Anyway, I'm not jumping in and saying you MUST remove roll bars from street cars. I *am* recommending against installing a 4-point bar in a street car that already gives reasonable rollover protection. Costs time/money/effort and in all likelihood you'll be a smidge *less* safe for most of your usage.

roll bars are never a good idea for a street car. not ever

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by fatoni

roll bars are never a good idea for a street car. not ever

what about factory built in roll bars

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

what about factory built in roll bars

still a bad idea. besides the only factory roll bars i can think of come in those stupid fast porsches that are designed for the track whether they are driven there or not

[delongedoug]

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/rollover.html

Roll bars and roll cages are not for everyone. Safety is a personal decision that only you can make. I tend to err on the side of safety. If something goes wrong on the track, I want to walk away from it. On the other hand, I don’t want to tear up the inside of my nice street car. So, safety has to be a compromise. Either I put the proper safety equipment in my car, or I don’t push hard on the race track. If I keep things under control on the track, I can minimize my safety concerns.

If I want to push hard on the track, I know the car was not designed to crash at the speeds we can achieve. For a school car that also runs on the street, a roll bar would be appropriate.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by delongedoug

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/rollover.html

So what you are saying with that is that you finally agree with Dave and me? Because "proper safety equipment" is a a seat, a bar and harnesses.

And the part pf that post you left out:

Originally Posted by NASA link

Installing a roll bar or roll cage will bring some benefits and some liabilities. A roll bar (defined here as a protection hoop with 4 mounting points) will help protect the occupants in the case of a roll over accident. Added benefits include chassis stiffening and a place to mount your seat, harnesses, camera mount and more.

Curious, what cars come stock with roll bars, collapsible seats and three-point seat belts?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by delongedoug

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/rollover.html

yeah well if you read that you will notice that they are talking about taking a convertible to a track. since with a convertilbe you have to have some sort of roll protection, a roll bar is the minimum required amount but it even says that the roll protection in a newer convertible such as the s2k may be enough. this has nothing to do with what is safe on the streets. it is about how you must meet the requirements of a track to drive on a track

[delongedoug]

No, they mention the SK2 as an example. That article is not written about convertibles.

All you need to run a HPDE event is your car (in good condition) and a helmet. In a convertible, you will also need to have a roll bar. This roll bar must be strong enough to withstand the forces of compression involved in supporting the full weight of the car. A factory roll bar such as those found on a Honda S2000 may fulfill this requirement, but “style bars” or “show bars” found on some other cars would not work. (If you have a question about your car, call the NASA office.) Road racing with NASA requires a full cage (defined as 6 or more mounting points).

And as I've said, once you add a rollbar/seats/harnesses, the streetability of the car is gone. Why you're hung up on this setup to the grocery store is beyond me when it was installed for track safety.

[delongedoug]

Originally Posted by oneday

So what you are saying with that is that you finally agree with Dave and me? Because "proper safety equipment" is a a seat, a bar and harnesses.

Yes, and that is what I run (so long as by bar you mean roll bar and not harness bar).

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by delongedoug

No, they mention the SK2 as an example. That article is not written about convertibles.



And as I've said, once you add a rollbar/seats/harnesses, the streetability of the car is gone. Why you're hung up on this setup to the grocery store is beyond me when it was installed for track safety.

i simply assumed that this was in regards to a multipurpose car. otherwise why would you ever need anything removable as far as the roll bar/cage is concerned? and yes that part about the roll bar looks to be about convertibles since it said that all you need is a helmet unless you have a convertible, then you need a rollbar.

[NastyNate]

I've got a rollbar in my miata. After fmic, boost gauge, and intake I had to. Could I smack my head on it? Yes. Could I roll the car and it save me? Yes.
If I get hit hard enough for me to hit it and not live there probably wasn't much that would have saved me. It has no padding and probably won't.
There will always be 'what ifs' but until those happen I'll enjoy the extra chasis rigidity and how sweet it looks.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NastyNate

I've got a rollbar in my miata. After fmic, boost gauge, and intake I had to. Could I smack my head on it? Yes. Could I roll the car and it save me? Yes.
If I get hit hard enough for me to hit it and not live there probably wasn't much that would have saved me. It has no padding and probably won't.
There will always be 'what ifs' but until those happen I'll enjoy the extra chasis rigidity and how sweet it looks.

just look at the probabilities. what do you think the ratio is of rolling over to other mvas? 1:20? what are the chances of rolling over and having a 3pt belt keep you under the bar? im going to say <1%. what are the chances of hitting your head on the rollbar from getting rear ended? >90%. so you are putting your life on 1/1000 odds. i mean yeah i have a roll bar too but i dont drive the miata on the street unless its to a track. if you got rear ended at about 30 mph that would kill you. that seems more likely than rolling over and somehow not hitting your head on anything

[NastyNate]

Luckily for me I sit about 2 inches from the top of the hoop. Its a boss frog double hoop. Check out the hard dog roll bar website. I have yet to see or hear of a roll bar in a miata killing a person. Im sure it has happened but compare that to the people it saves or the people that had it and wrecked but had no issues and I thi'm good.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by fatoni

roll bars are never a good idea for a street car. not ever

I have roll bars in my street cars because they are required for the classes I am in with the club I track with.

The idea that a roll bar in a street car is guaranteed to kill you in street usage is, IMO, as stupid as the idea that a roll bar at the track for modified cars will necessarily make you safer.

For street/track cars, whether or not you have a roll bar is often dicatated by track or sanctioning body rules.

I think it's a bit ridiculous to categorically state "roll bars are never a good idea for a street car. not ever".

If anyone has statistics of drivers being brain-damaged or killed by head injuries due to roll bars in street cars, I'd love to see them.