Official Formula 1 thread

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Don't forget the steering wheel.

I included that with lights, but now you mention it, they aren't always in sync are they, considering Lewis's steering wheel apparently didn't light up. That adds 3 more possible combos.

[Espi]

Originally Posted by TommyW

If Max was on his radio it would have been
"You want a place?!!HERE TAKE YOUR *******PLACE!"

LOL exactly

[Espi]

Alot needs to be sorted before this next race. F1 is in a good place with its new fanbase but they can loose it just as fast with the clowns officiating the sport.

This next race is going to be just as chaotic I suspect just hope its sorted with a race and not a crash.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

69 bar on the brake pedal, that's 1,000 psi of brake pressure, 2.4g of decel, F1 cars don't have brake boosters, Max wasn't 'trying to let him by' it was a blatant brake check in a narrow portion of the track with poor visuals. Penalty was appropriate.

If I was Lewis I would've checked up too, I wouldn't trust Max to walk in a straight line at this point, let alone let a competitor past cleanly, which as proven by the brake check not a second later. Lewis didn't know he was being given the position back and did his best to ensure he finished the race with an intact car.

It is a fascinating situation, and I'd like to play devil's advocate for a bit. Let me state what I believe to be are a few facts.
1. Max was instructed to let Lewis past. He tried to do so.
2. Lewis clearly had the opportunity to pass safely with plenty of room, but chose not to (at first).
3. Max cannot force Lewis to pass him.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. If Max is required to let Lewis pass him, yet Max cannot make Lewis pass him, something has to give. Here are a couple ways that could happen.

1. Max could slow down even more. This doesn't ensure he follows the stewards' instructions, but does improve the odds for him in being compliant.
2. Max could accelerate and continue racing as normal.

Max chose to do the former. If he chose to do that latter he surely would have been penalized further. Therefore one could argue he was put in a tough situation and chose what he believed to be the best option given the hand he was dealt.

Another interesting question: How much should Max be willing to slow down to let Lewis pass as the rest of the field catch both of them? Can you quantify that, and provide reasoning for your answer?

Thoughts?

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Pat

It is a fascinating situation, and I'd like to play devil's advocate for a bit. Let me state what I believe to be are a few facts.
1. Max was instructed to let Lewis past. He tried to do so.
2. Lewis clearly had the opportunity to pass safely with plenty of room, but chose not to (at first).
3. Max cannot force Lewis to pass him.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. If Max is required to let Lewis pass him, yet Max cannot make Lewis pass him, something has to give. Here are a couple ways that could happen.

1. Max could slow down even more. This doesn't ensure he follows the stewards' instructions, but does improve the odds for him in being compliant.
2. Max could accelerate and continue racing as normal.

Max chose to do the former. If he chose to do that latter he surely would have been penalized further. Therefore one could argue he was put in a tough situation and chose what he believed to be the best option given the hand he was dealt.

Another interesting question: How much should Max be willing to slow down to let Lewis pass as the rest of the field catch both of them? Can you quantify that, and provide reasoning for your answer?

Thoughts?

Good points all. It seems to me that if you are instructed to let someone pass you, you make a good faith effort to do, and they decline the opportunity, your obligation has been discharged. I suppose you (Max) could tell your pit to tell Merc and the stewards that you will give Lewis an opportunity to pass at the entrance to Turn X. By including the FIA in the message chain you create a "paper" trail. If you make a good faith effort to comply and the other party fails to take advantage of the opportunity - game on.

[NoHaveMSG]

Take the gamesmanship out of it and make the rule so they have to allow the other car to pass at the end of the straight.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Pat

It is a fascinating situation, and I'd like to play devil's advocate for a bit. Let me state what I believe to be are a few facts.
1. Max was instructed to let Lewis past. He tried to do so.
2. Lewis clearly had the opportunity to pass safely with plenty of room, but chose not to (at first).
3. Max cannot force Lewis to pass him.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. If Max is required to let Lewis pass him, yet Max cannot make Lewis pass him, something has to give. Here are a couple ways that could happen.

1. Max could slow down even more. This doesn't ensure he follows the stewards' instructions, but does improve the odds for him in being compliant.
2. Max could accelerate and continue racing as normal.

Max chose to do the former. If he chose to do that latter he surely would have been penalized further. Therefore one could argue he was put in a tough situation and chose what he believed to be the best option given the hand he was dealt.

Another interesting question: How much should Max be willing to slow down to let Lewis pass as the rest of the field catch both of them? Can you quantify that, and provide reasoning for your answer?

Thoughts?

While I agree with the theory of your argument, and the fact that this situation happened at all is on the FIA failing to define a clear gray area that's been allowed to fester for years, you don't stab the brakes mid track in a straight halfway off the racing line, not to mention without 'knowing' where your competitor is. That's something you should be in full concurrence of right?

That is black and white to me, even in a car with good visibility and mirrors, you don't make sudden movements when other cars are near you. Period. Day one of HPDE instruction for Grandpas first track day in his retirement 'vette.

If Max had continued to decel at a reasonable rate, I read somewhere KERS regen is about a 1.0g slowdown, I'd absolutely call Hamilton an idiot. But it was 2.4g of decel, 1,000 psi of brake pressure, that's a hard fucking stop.


You know what's the most damning evidence of all Max was wrong? Red Bull isn't protesting the penalty for the brake check despite Helmut bullshitting that they had the data that Max didn't brake check.

Edit: to answer your questions I don't know what's appropriate, I don't drive an F1 car, from your argument it would be unreasonable for max to slow to a stop on track to try and let Lewis by? I mean if I was in Max's shoes that's what I would have done to win the DRS line game, gradually slow to a crawl off-line. That's not what he did though, the penalty was for a brake check. If he had hit the gas and zoomed off instead 'sorry guys I tried, he didn't want it' we would be having a different discussion, one in which there's actually some debate worth having. But yesterday was a brake check, no bones about it.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

...you don't stab the brakes mid track in a straight halfway off the racing line, not to mention without 'knowing' where your competitor is. That's something you should be in full concurrence of right?

Absolutely that is the case in a vacuum. However I don't think it's fair to make an absolute statement on one factor when many others are at play.
One could make other statements of a similar nature like, "If you have the opportunity to pass safely, your competitor is under orders to let you by, and he gives you the opportunity, you make the pass." We all know there are other factors at play here, but that statement is also made in a vacuum. It's tough to argue with that one, also.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

While I agree with the theory of your argument, and the fact that this situation happened at all is on the FIA failing to define a clear gray area that's been allowed to fester for years, you don't stab the brakes mid track in a straight halfway off the racing line, not to mention without 'knowing' where your competitor is. That's something you should be in full concurrence of right?

That is black and white to me, even in a car with good visibility and mirrors, you don't make sudden movements when other cars are near you. Period. Day one of HPDE instruction for Grandpas first track day in his retirement 'vette.

If Max had continued to decel at a reasonable rate, I read somewhere KERS regen is about a 1.0g slowdown, I'd absolutely call Hamilton an idiot. But it was 2.4g of decel, 1,000 psi of brake pressure, that's a hard fucking stop.


You know what's the most damning evidence of all Max was wrong? Red Bull isn't protesting the penalty for the brake check despite Helmut bullshitting that they had the data that Max didn't brake check.

That penalty is meaningless though. Why bother wasting resources on something that has no effect on the championship.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Pat

Absolutely that is the case in a vacuum. However I don't think it's fair to make an absolute statement on one factor when many others are at play.
One could make other statements of a similar nature like, "If you have the opportunity to pass safely, your competitor is under orders to let you by, and he gives you the opportunity, you make the pass." We all know there are other factors at play here, but that statement is also made in a vacuum. It's tough to argue with that one, also.

Can you help me understand what factors make a brake check in an acceleration zone acceptable?

[Pat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

...from your argument it would be unreasonable for max to slow to a stop on track to try and let Lewis by? I mean if I was in Max's shoes that's what I would have done to win the DRS line game, gradually slow to a crawl off-line.

Well surely they would both be penalized for that. They would be going WAY too slowly while the other racers quickly catch them. That would have been a much bigger story than what actually happened and much more dangerous given the closing speeds.

[spcmafia]

Man, Drive to Survive is going be GOOOD next season. Too bad Max opted out, for good reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Can you help me understand what factors make a brake check in an acceleration zone acceptable?

What do the sporting regs say?

[Pat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Can you help me understand what factors make a brake check in an acceleration zone acceptable?

Yes. You are ordered by officials to allow someone behind you to pass. You let off, providing them the opportunity to pass. They don't pass. You are still under orders to allow them to pass. You cannot make them pass. All you can do is control your own car. Given that fact, you do whatever you can within your control to increase the odds of them passing, and therefore complying with official's orders. i.e. brake check.

Sounds like I'm ignoring other factors, doesn't it?