E100 vs 99.7% ethanol

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by Td-d

From the fueling point of view, given the wide range of AF error that the ecu can handle, you have a wide range to play with.

From the power tuning point of view, I would think that unless you are going to be tuning it for ethanol, even at low concentrations such as 20% / 30%, there really is no point - since you won't really get much extra power out of it (unless the fuel you currently run is so crap that the stock tune is neutered). Unlike a turbo'd setup, where one could argue that at least some ethanol would result in a cooler, more knock resistant mixture, on an NA engine it's not really an issue.

@diodelphi - why don't you run a flex fuel sensor setup? I have the same issue here (no pump E85), and will install a Zeitronix - that way, given the imprecise nature of home brew mixing of gas and ethanol, you know that the ecu is correctly fueling for whatever the mixture. I think running E99.7 without any of the additives will cause problem in the longer run - potentially expensive problems.

he is currently running +28% long term trim under wot at 14:1 AFR.. I tried explaining to him that the tune needed to be adjusted for the additional ethanol content when he first messaged me days ago about this.

He also ran leaded race gas for a few thousand K i think, or maybee a few time during the first 3000k.

My suggestion is just use E85 and an E85 tune. Not E100 or 99.7% ethanol with an E90 tune... not gonna work out very well. Either that or explain you are using pure ethanol, send them logs, and ask them to modify the tune.

[Td-d]

diodelphi or mid_life_crisis? I would be surprised if 20% E caused that lean a mixture. E100 - with a stock tune - definitely. In which case... SMH... from the context above, I thought he was tuned for E70 already. The AF correction limits can only do so much, and you would have to be pushing probably 40% to 45% more pulsewidth for E100.

Agreed on the approach - basically I would get it tuned for a known steady state level of E, and then add a flex fuel sensor into the mix so that he has the flexibility of throwing in gas occasionally, and not worrying what the exact mixture is. I still wouldn't run pure ethanol...

Bottom line is you have to tune for ethanol, otherwise there's no point.

[diodelphi]

Originally Posted by mid_life_crisis

Interesting, but it didn't answer my question.

i did not used ethanol with stock ecu.
maybe 30% ethanol work ok with stock ecu, i don not know.

[diodelphi]

Originally Posted by Td-d

@diodelphi - why don't you run a flex fuel sensor setup? I have the same issue here (no pump E85), and will install a Zeitronix - that way, given the imprecise nature of home brew mixing of gas and ethanol, you know that the ecu is correctly fueling for whatever the mixture. I think running E99.7 without any of the additives will cause problem in the longer run - potentially expensive problems.

in iran no tuner do that for me. I'm dummy person in mechanic and car tuning.
I prefer do not use it.

[diodelphi]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

he is currently running +28% long term trim under wot at 14:1 AFR.. I tried explaining to him that the tune needed to be adjusted for the additional ethanol content when he first messaged me days ago about this.

He also ran leaded race gas for a few thousand K i think, or maybee a few time during the first 3000k.

My suggestion is just use E85 and an E85 tune. Not E100 or 99.7% ethanol with an E90 tune... not gonna work out very well. Either that or explain you are using pure ethanol, send them logs, and ask them to modify the tune.

i tested all 4 maps of my tune with map switch :
map1: E100
map2: E90
map3: E80
map4: E70

I tested all maps with all ethanol mix ratio. result was the same. my car fuel consumption after before tuning had no change.
this log is 90% ethanol with my Map2.
http://www.datazap.me/u/toyota86ir/e...4?log=0&data=5

http://www.datazap.me/u/toyota86ir/t...og=0&data=5-29

engine do not work optimum.
if o2 sensor work 80% or damaged why my car before tune was ok, it was not lean with pump gas.

I'm not ecutek tuner but i think tuning fule table and inigtion should not be hard for a tuner.
I wonder why the result is bad.

[diodelphi]

tomorow i return to stock map and check o2 sensor with my friend.
i will upload it's log file , i'm sure o2 sensor is ok but maybe maybe catalyst converter be alittle damaged.

[projek_01]

I don't believe that E70 will give you the same fuel economy as E100. Gasoline has a higher energy density than ethanol. You are pretty brave @Diopelphi.... Keep the corrosion issues that I brought up earlier in your mind.

If your cat is damaged, I would imagine you are running too rich.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

He also ran leaded race gas for a few thousand K i think, or maybee a few time during thefirst 3000k.

I think that will have stuffed both 02 sensors, probably another part of the problem

[diodelphi]

Originally Posted by steve99

I think that will have stuffed both 02 sensors, probably another part of the problem

i ask you if o2 sensor be ok and catalyst converted be damaged should i change catalyst or catalyst has no effect on AFR?

[steve99]

Originally Posted by diodelphi

i ask you if o2 sensor be ok and catalyst converted be damaged should i change catalyst or catalyst has no effect on AFR?

the catylic converters will probably not be effective in reducing emmisions , but probably will be ok otherwise.

however i suspect the o2 sensors will be no good after leaded fuel used.

[diodelphi]

Originally Posted by steve99

the catylic converters will probably not be effective in reducing emmisions , but probably will be ok otherwise.

however i suspect the o2 sensors will be no good after leaded fuel used.

Thanks Thanks
I will replace o2 sensor and log with pump gas then will go for E85 with my tuner
my tuner is so busy , i hope to get top result

[diodelphi]

this is my Stock Toyota 86 after go back to factory OEM ECU without tune
Stock ecu
fuel E15
Gear 3

Smooth acceleration:
http://www.datazap.me/u/toyota86ir/t...0?log=0&data=5

WOT:
http://www.datazap.me/u/toyota86ir/s...o?log=0&data=5

now car is so much lively , lifelike , rich and fun to drive

it seems both o2 sensors are ok plus cat
do you have any ide?