All-New 2022 Toyota 86 Reveal Delayed

[Transport3r]

Originally Posted by ZDan

IMO that one guy's "insights", are largely b.s. Frankly, I think he's a bit of an idiot... The worst kind, one who presents himself as being an authority.

Agreed. All his criticisms of the car boil down to ‘I supercharged mine and it broke’. He doesn’t ‘get’ this car, it’s not what he’s looking for.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Eh, Savage Geese has done many videos of the varies 86 trims since owning his own. They have been largely positive in actuality.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

I find Savage to be on the jaded side, but it's actually refreshing after most reviewer rave about every car they test. I actually do think he does a good job at putting aside his personal preferences and finding "the point" of a car. His more recent videos with the Twins mainly complain about the engine and the cost cutting measures that hinder the car (like parts-bin with other Subaru models, lack of aluminum components, non-adjustable suspension from factory, etc.). He does give credit where it's due, on the steering, handling, cheap consumables and overall fun to drive.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Eh, Savage Geese has done many videos of the varies 86 trims since owning his own. They have been largely positive in actuality.

I'm not talking about "negativity", I'm talking about just being wrong about stuff. In a comparison between '17+ Toyota 86, ND2 Miata and S2000:

Regarding the engine the guy (at 33:52) says "It doesn't like to rev, it doesn't feel free to rev like the (ND2) Miata..." My jaw dropped there. Both the '13-'16 and especially the '17+ LOVE to rev, a lot more so than the ND2 Miata (s2000 is of course in a different league here). While the ND2's engine torque falls off after its 4000rpm peak, down to 136 lb-ft at 7000rpm, the '17+ FA20 after the dip has a rising torque curve, up to a second peak of ~156 lb-ft at 6800rpm and is still making 154 lb-ft at 7000rpm, making significantly more torque (and of course power) at that rpm vs. the ND2.

This guy may have some track experience, but IMO he has no *feel*. Yes, the engine *sounds* agricultural and tractorlike, but it *objectively* is much more eager to rev from midrange to redline than the ND2. I mean, the engine giving you MORE torque as revs climb has to be the very definition of being eager to rev.

It was obvious to me the first time I drove the car, and especially at the track, it LOVES to rev, much more so than the ND2. He's letting the sound overwhelm inputs from his backside and tell him that it doesn't. But he's objectively wrong here.

He also complains about not being able to trail-brake, and the front-end washing out on corner entry. Honestly I didn't even bother to take mine to the track without addressing the front camber issue which I knew would be a problem there. I went with camber plates, but it can be addressed more easily and cheaply with a combination of camber bolts and/or offset top mounts. But OK, valid point for stock vs. stock. Same was true of my 987.2 Cayman btw, I had to get more front camber for it, but I would never suggest that it's a fundamental failing of the car.

Also when researching whether I needed an oil cooler for tracking I came across one of his vids where he flatly states you NEED one, without providing any valid reasons why. Funnily enough other vids reveal he had a *hell* of a time with his oil cooler installation, then had oil that never got up to temp in cooler weather, then had leaks after he reinstalled it after uninstalling it for winter months. I mean the guy was actively *creating* problems with his car. Then he whines about how much he spent on it.

Funniest is this vid, where he makes 3 points about why he "moved on" from the FT86, while occasionally betraying a hatred of people younger than him having enough money to do mods FWIW I'm way older than him... Anyway it's kinda pathetic:

1) He doesn't want his car to be a "to-do" list...
Hmm, I've done hardly any mods to my car, had very few problems tracking and dailying it over the past three years...
He also honestly mentions part of his "to-do" list is fixing things he's screwed up. So partial admission it's not the car's fault?
Then he whines excessively about spending gobs of $$$ on stuff that didn't work right. Well, if you're stupid, yeah, it gets expensive.
2) He started driving a $50k BMW. OK, fine. But then he basically says he doesn't like the *stigma* of driving a less expensive car that *some* people may apply tasteless FnF mods to. WAT? Nobody's making him do that to *his* FR-S. Apparently driving a BMW makes him feel more grown-up? Who wants that?

3) (not really a point) Goes on about how he's not dissing people who mod the cars "when you're 16-24 you can't afford blah blah blah", basic implication, he's a grown up now. Then rants again about people younger than him having money to buy expensive cars and or mods, practically becoming enraged. Hilarious!

Hey, if you prefer to drive a 3500+ lb. luxury sport sedan, fine. I'm 53 and have a few $$$ in the bank and yet a barely-modded BRZ is (almost) fricking perfect for me on the road and at the track. I don't *want* to daily a 3500+ lb. luxo beast. But yeah, it's a much better fit for a lot of people.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

His more recent videos with the Twins mainly complain about the engine and the cost cutting measures that hinder the car (like parts-bin with other Subaru models, lack of aluminum components, non-adjustable suspension from factory, etc.).

Parts-bin? If the parts are good, why not use them? Lack of aluminum? It's not an issue. FWIW the S2000 has cast steel control arms. Steel, titanium, aluminum all have very similar strength to weight and stiffness to weight. The advantage of aluminum is beefy cross-sections with more bending stiffness. Downside is no fatigue limit (i.e. even at very low stresses cracks will eventually develop). So in the end, for production vehicles there's often very little advantage. Non-adjustable suspension is no big deal to me as I know I'm going to have to mod anyway. S2000 has "fully adjustable" suspension, but limited to about 1.25 degrees front camber. Which you can get with camber bolts and offset top mounts on the FT86.

He does give credit where it's due, on the steering, handling, cheap consumables and overall fun to drive.

Yeah, the *good* savage goose (better goose anyway) does praise the steering. Which is indeed very good! Better back to back vs. my old AP1 S2000 or 987.2 Cayman. Sweeeet...

[Lantanafrs2]

His experience was soured mainly due to the shitty aftermarket support at the time but his frustration in terms of making fi work are still being felt by enthusiasts today. Hes not the only reviewer who likes the miata engine over the fa20 either.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

His experience was soured mainly due to the shitty aftermarket support at the time but his frustration in terms of making fi work are still being felt by enthusiasts today. Hes not the only reviewer who likes the miata engine over the fa20 either.

I promise you, if you gave the FT86 the Miata's power/torque curves, people would complain about how slow it was (how does 92mph in the 1/4 grab you?). If you gave the ND2 the FA20's power/torque curves, it would hit 100mph in the 1/4 and people would love it.

People hear the flat-4 sound, expecting an inline-4 wail, and hate it (or maybe rather aren't familiar with it). That's all there is to it. OK, there's also the people who expect acceleration when in the wrong gear, but screw them...

[wbradley]

Savagegeese is benefitting somehow from the videos he does. The money he spent on his 86 with all the mods and selling it and buying a used S2000 was somewhat wasted on depreciation. That's his choice. More importantly and it gave him something to make more videos about, getting more subscribers, and so on.
He loses credibility slightly that his authoritative mechanic buddy couldn't help him install an oil cooler.
And, I grow tired of his immature vocabulary. The $50K BMW is "douchbaggery". No, actually people that talk that way on videos their children can one day see are, though.
This will be my 10th season with my FR-S. Modifying it was a commitment to me. And I have the same Ohlin's he had. 70K km. Body kit. Loud exhaust. Centrifugal supercharger. Leaky oil cooler, disconnected. Hey, I'm bald too.
He's the George Kostanza of car reviewers.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by soundman98

that's what all new vehicle reveals are moving towards, even the mundane suv/cuv reveals.

by being an invite only event, they get to control the entire flow of information about the car, making it all positive, or the invite-ee's won't be invited back to the brands next reveal.

it should really make you more skeptical of any information about any new vehicle, because the reviewers literal future depends on giving every new vehicle a positive glowing review, even if the entire interior falls apart and starts on fire.

I certainly understand the cynicism here but it's not always justified. If you check the reviews from the recent closed-track winter test of the upcoming Golf R, for example, several reviewers were quite harsh about the car's exclusive use of touch-sensitive and capacitive controls - a mistake Honda and Cadillac made a few years ago and subsequently reversed.

[Sport-Tech]

The answer to this may be buried somewhere in this forum, but I wonder why Subaru chose to use a EL header on the engine. Would a UEL header have worsened the torque dip? It would have sounded so much better.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by ZDan

S2000 has "fully adjustable" suspension, but limited to about 1.25 degrees front camber. Which you can get with camber bolts and offset top mounts on the FT86.

The S2000 can be adjusted to -1.9 degrees front camber stock (IIRC that's what my friend's AP2 got). But the 86 can also get -1.9 degrees with camber bolts and offset top mounts, so that might have been the number you were thinking of. (Of course the 86 needs more front camber than the S2000, but that's a different story.)

Agree on your other points though. The ND2 Miata torque curve falls off starting around 4800 RPM. The FA20 holds steady until around 6700 RPM. There's no question the FA20 is much more of a top end motor.

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

The answer to this may be buried somewhere in this forum, but I wonder why Subaru chose to use a EL header on the engine. Would a UEL header have worsened the torque dip? It would have sounded so much better.

It's interesting that you mention that. I switched to a 2017 OEM header (more EL design than 2013) and deleted the sound tube. You're right in that it sounds much smoother and less "agricultural" this way. It's actually one of my favorite non-ITB 4 cylinder engine sounds, especially from 5000-7600 RPM.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

The answer to this may be buried somewhere in this forum, but I wonder why Subaru chose to use a EL header on the engine. Would a UEL header have worsened the torque dip? It would have sounded so much better.

'better' is very much subjective. i love the EL stock header. UEL sounds even more like a poorly tuned tractor to me.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm not talking about "negativity", I'm talking about just being wrong about stuff. In a comparison between '17+ Toyota 86, ND2 Miata and S2000:

Regarding the engine the guy (at 33:52) says "It doesn't like to rev, it doesn't feel free to rev like the (ND2) Miata..." My jaw dropped there. Both the '13-'16 and especially the '17+ LOVE to rev, a lot more so than the ND2 Miata (s2000 is of course in a different league here). While the ND2's engine torque falls off after its 4000rpm peak, down to 136 lb-ft at 7000rpm, the '17+ FA20 after the dip has a rising torque curve, up to a second peak of ~156 lb-ft at 6800rpm and is still making 154 lb-ft at 7000rpm, making significantly more torque (and of course power) at that rpm vs. the ND2.

This guy may have some track experience, but IMO he has no *feel*. Yes, the engine *sounds* agricultural and tractorlike, but it *objectively* is much more eager to rev from midrange to redline than the ND2. I mean, the engine giving you MORE torque as revs climb has to be the very definition of being eager to rev.

It was obvious to me the first time I drove the car, and especially at the track, it LOVES to rev, much more so than the ND2. He's letting the sound overwhelm inputs from his backside and tell him that it doesn't. But he's objectively wrong here.

He also complains about not being able to trail-brake, and the front-end washing out on corner entry. Honestly I didn't even bother to take mine to the track without addressing the front camber issue which I knew would be a problem there. I went with camber plates, but it can be addressed more easily and cheaply with a combination of camber bolts and/or offset top mounts. But OK, valid point for stock vs. stock. Same was true of my 987.2 Cayman btw, I had to get more front camber for it, but I would never suggest that it's a fundamental failing of the car.

Also when researching whether I needed an oil cooler for tracking I came across one of his vids where he flatly states you NEED one, without providing any valid reasons why. Funnily enough other vids reveal he had a *hell* of a time with his oil cooler installation, then had oil that never got up to temp in cooler weather, then had leaks after he reinstalled it after uninstalling it for winter months. I mean the guy was actively *creating* problems with his car. Then he whines about how much he spent on it.

Funniest is this vid, where he makes 3 points about why he "moved on" from the FT86, while occasionally betraying a hatred of people younger than him having enough money to do mods FWIW I'm way older than him... Anyway it's kinda pathetic:

1) He doesn't want his car to be a "to-do" list...
Hmm, I've done hardly any mods to my car, had very few problems tracking and dailying it over the past three years...
He also honestly mentions part of his "to-do" list is fixing things he's screwed up. So partial admission it's not the car's fault?
Then he whines excessively about spending gobs of $$$ on stuff that didn't work right. Well, if you're stupid, yeah, it gets expensive.
2) He started driving a $50k BMW. OK, fine. But then he basically says he doesn't like the *stigma* of driving a less expensive car that *some* people may apply tasteless FnF mods to. WAT? Nobody's making him do that to *his* FR-S. Apparently driving a BMW makes him feel more grown-up? Who wants that?

3) (not really a point) Goes on about how he's not dissing people who mod the cars "when you're 16-24 you can't afford blah blah blah", basic implication, he's a grown up now. Then rants again about people younger than him having money to buy expensive cars and or mods, practically becoming enraged. Hilarious!

Hey, if you prefer to drive a 3500+ lb. luxury sport sedan, fine. I'm 53 and have a few $$$ in the bank and yet a barely-modded BRZ is (almost) fricking perfect for me on the road and at the track. I don't *want* to daily a 3500+ lb. luxo beast. But yeah, it's a much better fit for a lot of people.

Weight and gearing has a bit to do with it.

Not sure if you saw the haggerty video, but weight and gearing adjusted the 86 just doesn't pull like the Miata - at every point on the rev range.

Its unfair to say it doesn't like to rev though - it does. That savage geese video is a comparison though, and of all the cars its the weakest in power delivery.

Hagarty - see 3:10 in

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by soundman98

'better' is very much subjective. i love the EL stock header. UEL sounds even more like a poorly tuned tractor to me.

Never heard a tractor that sounds this good (jump to 8:13):