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Old 07-13-2020, 03:15 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by strat61caster View Post
ftfy

And yes, that includes weekend warriors.

imho the brake electronic brake biasing that allow the driver to actually use the brake mid-corner with the wheels unevenly loaded are awesome, I'm not in a hurry to get rid of it.
It's counterproductive when looking for proper trail braking for rotation, because EBD's objective is to slow you down straight.
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Old 07-13-2020, 04:16 PM   #30
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It's counterproductive when looking for proper trail braking for rotation, because EBD's objective is to slow you down straight.
I'm generally happy with my trail brake rotation with the 5s button press, I definitely wasn't in some forms of setup but it's all a compromise. Mid corner braking with pedal dance is worthless since it reduces the brake pressure to the least loaded wheel to prevent lockup, with ebd it biases to the outside wheels and actually helps you tuck into a corner you otherwise would've totally wasted.
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Old 07-27-2020, 02:55 PM   #31
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Me and a bud are considering this for next time trial event. Rules for classification give -1 point for disabling factory ABS, equivalent to -42 lb. IMO it's a stupid rule but thinking of taking advantage! He has a 2013 BRZ, mine is 2017 PP. Both have the same two ABS fuses. FWIW I ran without ABS (bad sensor) in my '01 S2000 for years and never had any problems. Only concern here is if brake bias without ABS is overly rearward...

What do the experts say?!
I have heard pulling the fuses causes bias problems but it would sure be worth testing to evaluate for yourself.
I don't want any part of ABS on track and have eliminated the system completely in my car bypassing the ABS module and running the rear brake lines thru a bias adjuster mounted on the dash. It works great.
If your rules allow this it might be worth doing.
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Old 07-28-2020, 10:26 AM   #32
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Street car so I'll leave ABS in place. Have since learned that disconnecting a wheelspeed sensor is an easier way to disable ABS. I probably won't disable my ABS as for the configurations I'm considering for Palmer in a couple of weeks has my minimum weight lower than I can get to anyway. My bud/competitor has Beastronix so he can disable ABS with that. I think...

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I have heard pulling the fuses causes bias problems but it would sure be worth testing to evaluate for yourself.
I don't want any part of ABS on track and have eliminated the system completely in my car bypassing the ABS module and running the rear brake lines thru a bias adjuster mounted on the dash. It works great.
If your rules allow this it might be worth doing.
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Old 06-12-2023, 12:33 PM   #33
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So, has anyone tracked the car with ABS fuse removed and can confirm that it affects the brake bias?
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Old 06-12-2023, 01:52 PM   #34
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So, has anyone tracked the car with ABS fuse removed and can confirm that it affects the brake bias?
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Old 06-12-2023, 02:00 PM   #35
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So, has anyone tracked the car with ABS fuse removed and can confirm that it affects the brake bias?
My 2017 PP with Brembos had excssive front bias with the ABS fuse removed (the bigger, 40A one), running CSG Spec C2 pads all around, on Hoosier A7s. Had a couple of massive front lockups, flat-spotted/corded a tire at Palmer...

I definitely prefer to run with ABS, with the "long-hold" on the TCS off button based on the front bias issues with fuse pulled.
But weirdly, my car at Watkins Glen would get an abs malfuction, so running there I had to pull the fuse! No probs elsewhere. Weird...
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Old 06-12-2023, 03:20 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post

I track it with no ABS at all and my own brake setup so I don't think my experience is what you are looking for. That said you can easily adjust the bias of the system with different brakepad compounds if you want to try it out.
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I swear I will punch your car if you put these on. Right in the face.

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Old 06-12-2023, 03:24 PM   #37
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I have track it with no ABS at all and my own brake setup so don't think my experience is what you are looking for. That said you can easily adjust the bias of the system with different brakepad compounds if you want to try it out.
Ahh, okay. I knew you were on a custom setup but didn't know if you tracked the stock setup previously with no ABS.
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Old 06-12-2023, 09:19 PM   #38
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If you can stop faster with the ABS fuse pulled in a BRZ, I will paypal you 5 dollars.

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Thank you.

Lots of people love to pound on their chest and talk about how nannies ruin the car, but the reality is, there is no chance they're going to brake harder or run faster laps without ABS.

First and foremost, there aren't 4 brake pedals whereas ABS has 4 channel braking. And get this- you're turning. You're always going to have very different loads on each tire.

Second, there is very little braking power left on the table- ie the difference between theoretical max threshold and ABS for ONE tire, let alone when you live in the real world with 4 different tires with 4 different loads. If you are in that very narrow theoretical band for one tire, at least one is locked up or has a ton more braking capacity that isn't being utilized.

This isn't launching with traction control in 1997. Very little, if any meaningful braking power between maximum threshold and ABS.

There is just no way you're going to run laps and consistently find that hair sliver in every braking zone. You need to lock it up once to completely negate nailing that very narrow band 100x in a row. And when you do lock it up, it also probably means you ruined a set of tires.

Also, there is very little time to be found in braking harder/later anyway. Just look at the data.

I guarantee you that if it were legal, F1 would be running ABS. They wouldn't have a rule against it (and traction control systems- which ABS is btw) for the seam reason they don't have a rule against towing a boat anchor.

This chest beating nonsense reminds me of the boomers on Corvette and Viper forums bragging about turning off TC when they get in the car. I'm certain I'm a better and faster driver than almost every single one of those guys and I suck. I know actual "real" pro drivers who get paid money to race. They all leave TC on. If modern day TC systems are interfering with your driving on the street, you're driving like a complete asshole.
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Old 06-13-2023, 12:32 AM   #39
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A few outside points to think of @GrandSport. These aren't necessarily directly applicable, but does provide some insight into other scenarios.

Many race cars/series mandate ABS/TC, so the option isn't even presented. It makes sense, given that the vast majority of racers are gentleman drivers.

Motorsport ABS is vastly different from a reactive street car ABS. I'd run motorsport ABS all day, if my objective was purely to go fast.

TC/VSC can get very intrusive if there's a setup error, even if you're driving in a very conservative, responsible manner, something like a very comfortable 25mph around a large cloversleaf, that even a loaded big rig would take at 25.

Street car ABS is reactive. I'm a firm believer that anyone who wants to learn to threshold brake can out-perform CRUSHING their brake pedal and engaging their street ABS every single time. You can out-perform the ABS before lockup, because static friction is greater than kinetic friction, and you can ride that line before lockup, and ABS pulsing. That said, pulling the ABS fuse won't make any car stop faster; it only takes away the safety net. Executing this on track while driving, outside a simple braking exercise, is far more challenging than just doing it purely to practice the skill, but isn't the challenge why we do this in the first place? For the same reason, I'd run motorsport TC all day to go fast, but the challenge is what is fun.

Equating lockup to spinning tires is not perfect, but close enough for the sake of comparison. Everyone universally agrees that spinning (sliding against the surface) tires has less traction than gripping, even if massively sub-par. The worst TC will still likely out-accelerate a car wildly spinning tires. The opposite can (very crudely) be equated. A sliding tire will likely do worse by a LOT than a nowhere-near-threshold stop. Think back to the times someone locks up under panicking, and slides off track at a near comically low speed, when they could have just eased off the pedal and turned instead. Very imperfect analogy, I know.
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Old 06-13-2023, 08:03 AM   #40
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FWIW, original question asked by me, was not about going faster, but just avoiding having to add ballast to the car more as a matter of convenience than anything. When I lost the ABS on the S2000, my lap times did not suffer much as the brake balance was not so bad.

In the end I added ballast because I did not want to disable ABS without having a very good idea about what to expect. But then at Watkins Glen, ABS went *insane* and I *had* to pull the fuse! The car was OK-fine to track without the ABS, but somewhat front-biased and I wasn't able to brake nearly as late or as hard vs. with ABS. Ran the following season with ABS fuse pulled, then at Palmer corded a Hoosier with front lockups, doh... Killed my TT, in retrospect I shoulda put the corded tire on the inside rear and had at it for the 3-lap TT! After that I tentatively tried running ABS on track again and found that it worked fine for me, everywhere but at Watkins Glen, where I'd get an ABS warning light and after that pretty much have to pull in and yank the fuse or get massive asymmetric front lockups at modest brake pressures...

Anyway, I always thought ABS on the '17 PP did a great job at the track, as opposed to some Porsche and BMW systems that go into weird "ice mode". Right up until it tried to kill me. Hopefully the system in the '23 can deal with Watkins Glen without going insane like the '17 did...
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Old 06-13-2023, 08:36 AM   #41
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A few outside points to think of @GrandSport. These aren't necessarily directly applicable, but does provide some insight into other scenarios.

Many race cars/series mandate ABS/TC, so the option isn't even presented. It makes sense, given that the vast majority of racers are gentleman drivers.

Motorsport ABS is vastly different from a reactive street car ABS. I'd run motorsport ABS all day, if my objective was purely to go fast.

TC/VSC can get very intrusive if there's a setup error, even if you're driving in a very conservative, responsible manner, something like a very comfortable 25mph around a large cloversleaf, that even a loaded big rig would take at 25.

Street car ABS is reactive. I'm a firm believer that anyone who wants to learn to threshold brake can out-perform CRUSHING their brake pedal and engaging their street ABS every single time. You can out-perform the ABS before lockup, because static friction is greater than kinetic friction, and you can ride that line before lockup, and ABS pulsing. That said, pulling the ABS fuse won't make any car stop faster; it only takes away the safety net. Executing this on track while driving, outside a simple braking exercise, is far more challenging than just doing it purely to practice the skill, but isn't the challenge why we do this in the first place? For the same reason, I'd run motorsport TC all day to go fast, but the challenge is what is fun.

Equating lockup to spinning tires is not perfect, but close enough for the sake of comparison. Everyone universally agrees that spinning (sliding against the surface) tires has less traction than gripping, even if massively sub-par. The worst TC will still likely out-accelerate a car wildly spinning tires. The opposite can (very crudely) be equated. A sliding tire will likely do worse by a LOT than a nowhere-near-threshold stop. Think back to the times someone locks up under panicking, and slides off track at a near comically low speed, when they could have just eased off the pedal and turned instead. Very imperfect analogy, I know.
Well, dont set your car up wrong, lol. And if you do, dont drive it hard. I've never seen a situation where, driving on the road, my TS/SCS kicked in and I thought it was too intrusive. While I have a lot of 86 experience, it's almost 100% with it off on the track, so maybe I'm wrong about the 86s.

Motorsport management of any sort- SC, TC, ABS, engine, etc are all very different than street for sure (though, street is getting pretty good!). But I'd be very interested to see what the theoretical "best" differences are between street ABS and no-abs with a pro 1driver 1) doing braking exercises and 2) time per braking zone or lap or something. I bet it's small. And I bet its negative for pretty much every HPDE driver and even any am racer that isn't consistently podiuming.


I don't have ABS in the Miata and it seemed like I couldn't go 2 full days without flat spots starting. I eventually just decided to taking it easier on the brakes. It wasn't that I constantly locked them up. Quite the opposite. Maybe twice a a day. After the first one or two lock ups, it just gets worse and worse till looking at the brakes locks them up.

Rough math at my local track is I'm doing 80-100 braking zones per 30 min session. That's 400-600 a day. Call it 1000 for two track days. Well, great. If I dont lock them 99.5% of the time, that's still 5 times I locked them up and it's a bad flat spot in development.
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Old 06-13-2023, 09:20 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
FWIW, original question asked by me, was not about going faster, but just avoiding having to add ballast to the car more as a matter of convenience than anything. When I lost the ABS on the S2000, my lap times did not suffer much as the brake balance was not so bad.

In the end I added ballast because I did not want to disable ABS without having a very good idea about what to expect. But then at Watkins Glen, ABS went *insane* and I *had* to pull the fuse! The car was OK-fine to track without the ABS, but somewhat front-biased and I wasn't able to brake nearly as late or as hard vs. with ABS. Ran the following season with ABS fuse pulled, then at Palmer corded a Hoosier with front lockups, doh... Killed my TT, in retrospect I shoulda put the corded tire on the inside rear and had at it for the 3-lap TT! After that I tentatively tried running ABS on track again and found that it worked fine for me, everywhere but at Watkins Glen, where I'd get an ABS warning light and after that pretty much have to pull in and yank the fuse or get massive asymmetric front lockups at modest brake pressures...

Anyway, I always thought ABS on the '17 PP did a great job at the track, as opposed to some Porsche and BMW systems that go into weird "ice mode". Right up until it tried to kill me. Hopefully the system in the '23 can deal with Watkins Glen without going insane like the '17 did...

I'll likely be ditching the pedal box and going back to the stock 86 pedal setup with a MK60 next year and standalone ecu TC strategy. I rode in a boosted miata with it and crazy how well it works.
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