Thinking out loud: Need to run All Seasons

[alphasaur]

Originally Posted by mrg666

I drive with all seasons too since I hate driving with winter tires. Although I have a set of snow tires, I buy all seasons to enjoy my car in the winter as well. I have a second car for snowy days now and I don't even install the winter tires on my FRS anymore. Plus, we frequently have heavy rains in the summer and all seasons are better with heavy rain.

Today, I have just ordered Goodyear Eagle F1s to replace my General G-Max AS05 tires that I have been very much satisfied in the last three years. Eagle F1s were on sale and I will try new tires. Excited about that.

All seasons do not perform better in rain than appropriate summers. Summer/Winter is primarily referring to the temperature tolerance of the compound.

https://blog.tirerack.com/blog/bens-...tires-for-rain

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by alphasaur

All seasons do not perform better in rain than appropriate summers. Summer/Winter is primarily referring to the temperature tolerance of the compound.

https://blog.tirerack.com/blog/bens-...tires-for-rain

Using your tricky word choice, "proper" all seasons perform better than summers under heavy rain.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Using your tricky word choice, "proper" all seasons perform better than summers under heavy rain.

What are you basing this on? Most tire tests use "dry" and "wet", and sometimes test hydroplaning resistance. In these Max Performance Summers edge out Ultra High Performance All Seasons in the dry and in the wet (in braking distances and lateral g force), but the variation between tires in each category is bigger. So you could easily find an all season tires that out performs a summer tire in the wet, but that's because the specific summer tire chose to sacrifice wet traction for dry traction (or it was just a crappy summer tire...).

I would say that the Goodyear Eagle Exhilarate do look pretty awesome for an all season, especially in the wet, but still lags a little behind the PS4S in the dry.

Don't get hung up on generalizations - check the tires available for the size you need and then decide.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

What are you basing this on? Most tire tests use "dry" and "wet", and sometimes test hydroplaning resistance. In these Max Performance Summers edge out Ultra High Performance All Seasons in the dry and in the wet (in braking distances and lateral g force), but the variation between tires in each category is bigger. So you could easily find an all season tires that out performs a summer tire in the wet, but that's because the specific summer tire chose to sacrifice wet traction for dry traction (or it was just a crappy summer tire...).

I would say that the Goodyear Eagle Exhilarate do look pretty awesome for an all season, especially in the wet, but still lags a little behind the PS4S in the dry.

Don't get hung up on generalizations - check the tires available for the size you need and then decide.

I agree that summer tires are best for grip and sports driving. There is no argument about that. I also know that summer tires are generally claimed to be better under rain.

But, summer tires wear faster and they lose grip at low temperature. There are very good all season tires with good grip and handling. Regarding rain performance, the amount of grooves and tread depth matter regarding hydroplaning. All seasons generally have more grooves and their tread do not wear as fast as summer tires.

To me, all seasons are more dependable and economical for the street. On my FR-S, I have used Yokohama Advan Sport A/S and General G-Max AS05 so far. Both are so much better than the stock Turanza tires. I hope the next set of Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric AS will also be good.

[Yoshoobaroo]

All seasons are no seasons

[churchx]

mrg666: summer tires wear faster only if they are at very different class and chosen to specialize on something at expense of wear. Everything else being same (eg. grip, rolling-resistance, generic tire load/speed/type class, driving type), all-seasons (just like winter tires) driven in summer will wear quicker (like winters) due softer compound and those extra sipes/grooves. If they are not, then tires are of some different class or driven very differently. And then there is bit of regulations. I'm not familiar with US regs, but here summer tires are allowed to have minimum 1.4mm thread depth, while winter tires min 4mm. So all-seasons will at some point become legal in summer-only.
All seasons are more economical if in one's country mounting tires is very expensive and there is only one wheel set and no tire storage space. Otherwise it's not so much saving, as rather distributing tire purchase spending intervals differently over time, not changing much overall sum. And driving with compromises all the time. Reduced grip, increased noise, worse handling feel in summer, reduced grip and ability to get through most road situations, when there is "white-stuff" .

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by churchx

mrg666: summer tires wear faster only if they are at very different class and chosen to specialize on something at expense of wear. Everything else being same (eg. grip, rolling-resistance, generic tire load/speed/type class, driving type), all-seasons (just like winter tires) driven in summer will wear quicker (like winters) due softer compound and those extra sipes/grooves. If they are not, then tires are of some different class or driven very differently. And then there is bit of regulations. I'm not familiar with US regs, but here summer tires are allowed to have minimum 1.4mm thread depth, while winter tires min 4mm. So all-seasons will at some point become legal in summer-only.
All seasons are more economical if in one's country mounting tires is very expensive and there is only one wheel set and no tire storage space. Otherwise it's not so much saving, as rather distributing tire purchase spending intervals differently over time, not changing much overall sum. And driving with compromises all the time. Reduced grip, increased noise, worse handling feel in summer, reduced grip and ability to get through most road situations, when there is "white-stuff" .

Manufacturer treadwear rating of summer tires are generallly around 300 but all season performance tires are usually 500. I just don't want to replace my tires one year earlier and worry about the temperature outside. It can be near or below freezing temperatures from October to April here in Northeast. Handling advantages of summer tires does not make enough difference for me to maintain two wheel sets and pay double price. For example, cost of Michelin PS4S is $400 more for a set than what I paid for Goodyear Eagle F1 all seasons. The General GMax set getting replaced was good enough for me to have fun driving.

There is continuous improvement in technology. Hopefully, they will be able to eliminate temperature restrictions and increase tread wear rating of summer tires in the future. Those tires will probably be called just performance tires. Then, I will be willing to pay the extra cost.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

All seasons are no seasons

All seasons are 3 seasons. I run them so I can go a bit longer before changing to winters. Instead of changing in October and May I get to go switching December and March.
They may not be as nice as summer tires but they are better than half the year on winters.
EVERYTHING about tires is a compromise anyway. No matter what you are after you are going to give something else up to get it.

[gravitylover]

I thoroughly enjoy the GMax AS05's I have on the car now and also thought that the Conti EC's were great but they both pretty much suck in the snow and cold so it means dedicated winter tires are a necessity if the car is to be used when it snows or even if the pavement temp is significantly below freezing. At about 25 degrees the car gets too "slidey" for comfort on the twisty and hilly roads where I live with either of these 2 AS tires. My next set of shoes will be the Nokian WRG4, this new all weather class sounds like it will be more appropriate for a car that lives in a place where it can be cold from mid October through early May and that gets nearly 50" of precip a year. I know several people that run them on a variety of different vehicles and love them.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

EVERYTHING about tires is a compromise anyway. No matter what you are after you are going to give something else up to get it.

The is very true. The argument is ingrained in me from years of trying to convince people that driving AS tires through a foot of snow isn’t a good idea just because you have AWD.

[86TOYO2k17]

Where i live we don't really get much snow, maybe a combined total of 1 week of snow on the streets a year. at which point i either don't work or just take my other AWD car to work. Also where i live on my commute to work there is only about 3-4 months a year where the AVG temp at 5am when i drive to work is above 50 degrees and with the yearly avg at 5am being closer to 40-45 degrees, and even for those 3-4 months its about 55 degrees avg. So not really enough snow to warrant a dedicated winter tire and not warm enough to use a dedicated summer tire.

and like was mentioned a good ultra high performance A/S will be better dry/wet grip compare to a mid tier Summer tire. Some people go dedicated summer and dedicated winter but then buy mid to low tier tires to save money, so your at 100$ x 4 x 2 sets = 800$ to save money, but a 140+$ x4 = 560$ A/S tire will be as good if not better. Michelin pilot sport as 3+ not as good as top tier summers like pilot sport 4s / cup2, but just as good or better than majority of mid tier summers at dry/wet grip and lower tier winters in snow/ice.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Where i live we don't really get much snow, maybe a combined total of 1 week of snow on the streets a year. at which point i either don't work or just take my other AWD car to work. Also where i live on my commute to work there is only about 3-4 months a year where the AVG temp at 5am when i drive to work is above 50 degrees and with the yearly avg at 5am being closer to 40-45 degrees, and even for those 3-4 months its about 55 degrees avg. So not really enough snow to warrant a dedicated winter tire and not warm enough to use a dedicated summer tire.

and like was mentioned a good ultra high performance A/S will be better dry/wet grip compare to a mid tier Summer tire. Some people go dedicated summer and dedicated winter but then buy mid to low tier tires to save money, so your at 100$ x 4 x 2 sets = 800$ to save money, but a 140+$ x4 = 560$ A/S tire will be as good if not better. Michelin pilot sport as 3+ not as good as top tier summers like pilot sport 4s / cup2, but just as good or better than majority of mid tier summers at dry/wet grip and lower tier winters in snow/ice.

Keep in mind with 2 separate sets the tires on the shelf don’t wear. While you are buying a second set of tires, you end up replacing your others less often. In the end (if you need winters) you don’t really spend more money on tires from having a winter set.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Keep in mind with 2 separate sets the tires on the shelf don’t wear. While you are buying a second set of tires, you end up replacing your others less often. In the end (if you need winters) you don’t really spend more money on tires from having a winter set.

So long that you keep the car long enough to wear two sets of tires (either two sets of all seasons or one summer set and one winter set). For somebody who replaces his cars like his jeans, all seasons might make more sense (or even better, summers only and trade the car by winter ).
Also, you need an extra set of wheels which do make it more expensive to run dedicated tires (or the cost of swapping tires twice a year, which probably evens out with the wheels over time).

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Keep in mind with 2 separate sets the tires on the shelf don’t wear. While you are buying a second set of tires, you end up replacing your others less often. In the end (if you need winters) you don’t really spend more money on tires from having a winter set.

Right, which is why you should justify the investment and buy top tier summer tires and at least mid tier winters to actually benefit from having the dedicated summer/winter setups compared to just 1 set of top tier A/S tires. but a lot of people try to cheap out on the initial investment even though the end cost switching back and forth will balance out as you buy tires less often. but they think any summer tire is better than any A/S which just isn't the case. MPS A/S 3+ is probably better than about 80% of summer tires in dry/wet grip. and probably better than about 40% of most winter tires in ice/snow, and probably better than almost all winter tires in dry/wet grip at 30+degrees.