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Old 10-24-2019, 07:40 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by p1l0t View Post
I want 300 more hp, but without compromising on weight or handling, AND not costing a 100k dollars... aaand GO..
Sorry, you can have 3 of the 4 (HP, Weight, Handling, Price) but not all 4. In my case, I'm willing to sacrifice Weight. Once I do that there are lots of choices under $100,000.
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Old 10-24-2019, 07:41 AM   #114
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Great photo! If it had a full conning tower, all 5 engines and didn't have a bus in the background I would have thought it was the real thing!
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Old 10-24-2019, 08:00 AM   #115
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Here's my question on horsepower options. Even though I'm fine with the 200ish HP in the 86, there is nothing magical about that number. I do think it is the acceptable minimal amount of power, but the car would have been fine (and has proven to be fine) with as much as 50% more.

So the question is....

Why is it that in the one car where from the start they knew folks would care about HP did they decide that it was a one engine fits all solution? I'm not sure about Subaru, but doesn't Toyota offer engine options in just about every other model they build, except their two "sports cars"?
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Last edited by Dadhawk; 10-25-2019 at 08:11 AM. Reason: for clarity of purpose
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:10 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
Naturally aspirated engines that have qualities (not necessarily power) better than the FA20:

-F20C I4: 2.0L Honda S2000 engine (240 HP) Unique characteristics: Revs to 9,000 rpm, sounds amazing, literally bulletproof up to ~700 HP
-F22C I4: 2.2L Honda S2000 engine (240 HP) Unique characteristics: Revs to 8,200 rpm, sounds amazing, literally bulletproof up to ~700 HP
-D-4S I4: 2.5L in Toyota Camry/Rav4 (206 HP) Unique characteristics: Lightweight, high torque (literally 30 more torque than us and that's on 87 octane), one of the most thermally efficient ICE's in human history
-Skyactive I4: 2.0L in 2019+ Mazda Miata (181 HP) Unique characteristics: Lightweight, revs higher, very high compression ratio, sounds amazing
-2ZZ-GE I4: Toyota Celica GT-S 1.8L (189 HP literally like 20+ years ago) Unique characteristics: Honda like valvetrain, revs to 8,200 rpm (US) or 8,600 rpm (JDM), literally bulletproof
-K20A2 I4: Honda Civic 2.0L (200 HP) Unique characteristics: Quite possibly the most reliable motorsports powertrain in history, VTEC, 8,250 rpm, literally bulletproof even with forced induction
-K24A2 I4: Acura TSX 2.4L (205 HP) Unique characteristics: literally bulletproof, VTEC, sounds amazing
-K24W7 I4: Acura TLX (present day) (206 HP) Unique characteristics: literally bulletproof, VTEC, sounds amazing
-B18C I4: Honda Civic (200 HP) Unique characteristics: VTEC, 8,200 redline, literally bulletproof
-R4 I4: BMW E30 M3 & M3 Evo III (192-238 HP ~25+ years ago) Unique characteristics: Sounds amazing, revs higher, motorsport oriented torque curve
-Renesis 1.3L Rotary: Mazda RX8 R3 (238 HP) Unique characteristics: Duh, it's a rotary, 9,000 rpm redline, smooth as silk

The vast majority of these engines are longitudinal and pro-tip: making an engine for a longitudinal application is extremely simple. Half the engines in list were originally developed for transverse platforms. Source: Engineer specializing in PT design, calibration, and NVH.

Stop making excuses and own up to the fact we have a very meh powertrain in an otherwise excellent car.
naw, for the packaging & pricing it is an entirely respectable engine. your comparisons/expectations are silly. if you don't care about packaging, RWD, back seats, practicality, other indirect factors surrounding choice of engine then you're on the wrong forum.
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:17 PM   #117
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Despite the awful and weak engine, I really like the overall package of the 86. A hell of a lot more than something like an s2k, which has a wonderful engine and the best feeling shifter.
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:35 PM   #118
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I don't understand to use for all this power when the speed limit is 65mph?!?
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F20C? Is that in a Miata?
Has someone stolen iLuveKetchup's account? He has an S2000 for his avatar, has previously spoken often about S2000s, and I'm pretty sure I've seen him posting on www.s2ki.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoniyama View Post
Thanks to the engineering skill of Toyota and Subaru, our Toybaru has a great chassis that can handle much more power than the 200 hp produced by the FA20, hence there has been pleas from day 1 for more power. And further enhancement to the chassis only makes the pleas grow louder. Special editions of the Toybaru with slightly higher power have been grossly insufficient to quell the desire for more power.

Among many other factors, Tada-san has maintained that a 'balance' needs to be maintained, and the pleas for more power seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Of course, more power requires bigger brakes, radiators, fuel tank, wheels/tyres, etc. Just as important, is the driving skill of the driver. Currently, the Toybaru doesn't have enough power to overwhelm the chassis, but that 'safety margin' may be eroded if much more power is added. Therefore, most of the changes made to the Toybaru has been focused on improving the chassis, leaving the owners to add power to their taste.

There are ways to make the Toybaru go faster, eg lighter wheels, carbon graphite drive shaft, 2-piece brake rotors, freeflow exhaust, tuning of ECU, lighter flywheel, etc. Even Tada-san admitted that he was very impressed by the after-market offerings for the Toybaru, so much so that the 2016 face-lift was changed in scope and delayed, after taking into account of the development in the after-market.
The brakes were lifted directly off of the WRX. They're more than up to the task of handling 300 hp (for street driving) and the existing Brembo option would handle 300 hp on track just fine.

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You've obviously never driven the interstates in NC, GA or FL (or most of the Southeast and gulf states from my experience).

For that matter just I285 around Atlanta which everyone treats as their own personal NASCAR track.
Amen. 70 mph speed limits all over here, and everyone goes 85-90. Of course, my favorite part is when I'm stuck behind someone that decides to merge at 45 mph...
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:39 PM   #119
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"Speed is just a question of money, how fast you wanna go?"
You probably wouldn't consider 86 at first if you wanna go fast. Unless you like the chassis and dump a Ferrari engine in it or 2jz quad turbo.

I do prefer more RPM tho in this car XD
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:43 PM   #120
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Has someone stolen iLuveKetchup's account? He has an S2000 for his avatar, has previously spoken often about S2000s, and I'm pretty sure I've seen him posting on www.s2ki.com
There must be an imposter!
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:02 PM   #121
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I don't get the hate this engine gets. I like it so far and don't have any real reasons to dislike it outside the torque dip I often forget about. Oh and the leaky timing chain cover. Yeah, I'd have liked to see a proper Toyota I4 or an additional 40hp but I achieved that with some mods, so I'm happy.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:23 PM   #122
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I don't get the hate this engine gets. I like it so far and don't have any real reasons to dislike it outside the torque dip I often forget about. Oh and the leaky timing chain cover. Yeah, I'd have liked to see a proper Toyota I4 or an additional 40hp but I achieved that with some mods, so I'm happy.
Two words: Oil Pressure

That is my major complaint. Going to have to go to a killer B pickup and a baffle next year. Freaks me out to see my oil pressure gauge drop out into the teens on throttle during high G corners. Maybe I should just get rid of the gauge
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Old 10-24-2019, 03:17 PM   #123
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naw, for the packaging & pricing it is an entirely respectable engine. your comparisons/expectations are silly. if you don't care about packaging, RWD, back seats, practicality, other indirect factors surrounding choice of engine then you're on the wrong forum.
We do realize as humans you can criticize something and not hate it right? A decent chunk of those cars were cheaper than the BRZ when adjusted for inflation. Keep in mind, that list was answering the question of "what naturally aspirated small engines are better" question that was asked, not to compare each car.

The GT86 is an excellent car, I just think it would be better with a good engine. I'm just stating my opinion, backed up by examples, of how the powertrain and engine controls are a lackluster aspect to an otherwise great car. Making excuses for an engine that literally has a huge hole in the torque range does no one any good.

Again, you can criticize something and still like it; this is something people don't seem to understand these days.

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The brakes were lifted directly off of the WRX. They're more than up to the task of handling 300 hp (for street driving) and the existing Brembo option would handle 300 hp on track just fine.
STI* WRX brakes are smaller, although there is a performance package option on the current WRX that gives you STI Brembos.
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Old 10-24-2019, 03:49 PM   #124
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Words words words. Far as I can tell:


HP = speed
Torque = journey to speed


Seems like a tune can correct the torque dip, so... maybe Gen 2 gets a better stock tune. I generally live by slow-car fast, not fast-car slow. Most of my fun legally happens between 30 and 55 mph anyway on the backroads.
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Old 10-24-2019, 04:06 PM   #125
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Are some of you saying that headers and tune don't make for a better feeling car? You prefer less power and crappy torque? Even the original had a 4AGZE option.

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I would personally spend the time to do headers and tune, but some people don't have that kind of ambition. That's what makes car culture awesome, the ability to be you.
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Old 10-24-2019, 04:12 PM   #126
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To attain their goals of balance, handling, packaging, etc it HAD to be a boxer style engine...I think I remember seeing one of them mentioning a Porsche and Toyota collaboration.

Say 300hp was the spec on the gen 2 86, that involves a massive amount of changes that the OEM has to deal with, and that means R&D to make sure the product is safe, functional, and reliable...exponentially more involved than what an aftermarket manufacturer would ever do.

More Power means the clutch has to support that power, which means stronger transmission internals means physically larger or more expensive material, then larger axles, larger bearings, bigger ring & pinion, stronger driveshaft, heavier components mean beefier suspension components, which means bigger bushings, which means bigger mounts, which means more structural reinforcement at those mounting points, more stress at those points means more chassis modifications, etc, etc.

Which makes everything heavier, and more expensive.


To add in a second engine, means compromises to please both power plants. Compromises are expensive, and less effective. I wish American companies did this single engine option more, invest in a really good power plant and perfect it...not change it every year to appease brochure browsers.

There was a lot of work from Toybaru to create this platform and keep it economical...adding motor options does not fit their goals....basically the answer to them was Miata.


@Goingnowherefast none of those motors are candidates although the K series and Skyactives are great motors!...they either physically don't fit in their platform for an OEM, and/or won't pass current emissions....and S2000 engines are not bulletproof to 700hp, not even close...1JZE/2JZE maybe yes. And the Renesis is pure garbage...that is a blehhhhhhh motor in a great chassis.
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