P0011 & P0021

[BlueLine]

I have two codes that seem to just not go away. I have replaced all the sensors, physically checked the timing, replaced the intake cam sprocket gears to the new updated part and still having these codes that seem not to go away.

Today I have started the process to pull the engine, its that that involved. however, I am sitting here right now debating do I go down the rabbit hole of pull the engine and break it apart and rebuild it and put in all the new updated parts and hope all the electronics and mechanical stuff work, or pull the engine and do the engine swap (I had considered the 2ur-gse but that is no more) or do I sell the car, as a non runner clean title and just walk away from this platform?

let the debating start... please no thread jacking or trolls

Edit below here** i may have forgotten or merged some of this as I was typing but hopefully this gets the point across

This all started not related to a timing issue at all. driving home from work I stopped at a light and noticed when the clutch was depressed I could hear noise from the TOB. I then got a CEL/MIL light, read the code and it was for a coil pack that was bad, cleared the code and it would come back after an hour drive to or from work when air temps were still in the 80's.

about 5 days after that light came on the TOB self destructed in a glorious fashion. (same as several photos on here). I ordered a new clutch and prepped the car to have as little down time as possible. When the new clutch came in I noticed it was not correct and the TOB was the old part #. I had to wait for about 10 days for that to be fixed. all in the mean time the battery was disconnected from the car.

Once all the clutch components arrived I put the clutch back in the car on my next day off so the battery was off the car for about 2 weeks or there about.

I started the car and it when crazy in rev's, which prior to the clutch replacement had never happened. Then about a minute later the car tossed a CEL and stopped running. I read the codes and P0011 and P0021 were the only codes.

I changed the location of the cam position sensors and it followed them. so I ordered all 4 new sensors just to be safe. when they arrived I put them in the car and started it and it ran for about a minute again and the code came back.

I talked to a tech at the dealership and he suggested move the VVT sensor/controller and see if it followed the VVT(in which case it did he suggest I buy new VVT 10921aa241). Which I did and it followed once again. So I went and bought the VVT sensors, and changed the oil like he suggested.

By George by now I have to have this problem licked right? nope started it up and the codes were there instantly.

I found some information about the timing issues that people were having so i thought I better check that if all the magic sensors were just replaced it has to be mechanical.

I pulled the front timing cover off the engine. brought it to top dead center, the intake on bank 2 appeared to be off by a tooth, I then followed the tech info on setting the timing and the arrows no lined up with a straight edge perfectly.

prepped the timing cover for replacement, soda blasted the outside cleaned the inside edge of sealant and so on. washed the entire thing off in my parts cleaner,I bought new 3 bond and put the cover back on. primed the oil pump I then started the car again and with in 30 seconds the CEL came on again with these 2 codes.

I then talked to a different tech, and he advised me that in some FA20's they were fighting this same type behavior and Subaru and Toyota were going down a very similar path if it was still under warranty.

I pulled the timing cover and verified the timing countless times, had other people come verify it and we all said this thing is in time.

installed and restarted, and the codes were still there. I then ordered the new cam sprockets.

Pulled the timing cover off again put it to TDC, when the sprockets(which have been updated as well so I ordered the updated part subaru said fit the car**part numbers to be added later when I have the receipt) arrived I did one side then the next. When I took off the first cam sprocket I found that the metal tab on the back where the spring/plunger goes was missing. concern I thought it may have gone into the sump I started a search and found it inside the lip of the cam. When I pulled the other one the metal tab was missing to but found it on the back of the cam gear.

I then verified timing(along with 2 others) by now this thing has gotten me mad but I have seen the light. this had to be what was making the magic of the codes happen.The metal tabs had to be floating around and giving the magnetic sensors their errors, but what about when I put them to exhaust? While I had the timing cover off I decided I better check the exhaust, I found nothing wrong there. So I called my people back over just to make sure I wasn't going crazy with the timing marks again and back to putting the cover back on as I had done before.

I started the car it ran for 6 minutes no codes. I started my little happy dance, then it started a rough idle again, and they were back.

I started searching the forums and found a couple TSB for rough idle and updates for the ecu. I took the car down to the dealer(in limp mode) and they verified the car had the most recent version of the firmware. The dealer advised me it was not a bad ECU and it appeared I had followed the TSB 02-132-12 to troubleshoot the car and they wanted $1500 to start digging into the car further. however they had no real clue on what was the matter

[NCtoBRZ]

If you rebuild it, the problem may still be there and possibly some new bugs to iron out after you get everything back together. If a couple of codes seem like a hassle, then an engine swap will really be a huge PITA. I say trade it in as is and move on. Some folks would clear the code and trade the car in right away and let the dealer deal with it... but I’m not condoning that...

[BlueLine]

Originally Posted by NCtoBRZ

If you rebuild it, the problem may still be there and possibly some new bugs to iron out after you get everything back together. If a couple of codes seem like a hassle, then an engine swap will really be a huge PITA. I say trade it in as is and move on. Some folks would clear the code and trade the car in right away and let the dealer deal with it... but I’m not condoning that...

I’m too honest of a person to do that anyways.

[Q86STL]

I just had the P0021, intermittently. Subaru replaced the oil control valve and did an oil change, and knock on wood, I think it’s fixed. I didn’t get the other code though.


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[BlueLine]

Originally Posted by Q86STL

I just had the P0021, intermittently. Subaru replaced the oil control valve and did an oil change, and knock on wood, I think it’s fixed. I didn’t get the other code though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s how this started... then the other one... now they won’t go away.

The process was a lot more involved than I made it seemed later tonight I’ll edit the post with all the troubleshooting that was done

[RZNT4R]

Hopefully you'll update with more of the diagnostic because right now it sounds like a bunch of parts were changed and no actual diagnostic was done, which is a big no-no.

Granted, there isn't a lot of diagnostic associated with these codes: dtc confirmation -> active test -> dtc confirmation -> check timing -> check ocv -> check cam sprocket -> clean oil system -> dtc confirmation -> replace ecm if you haven't found the problem by now.

I would add that it's probably good practice to check oil pressure even if it's not in the diagnostic chart, and the specified way of cleaning the lubrication system is a bit half assed. I would heat soak the engine then add a crankcase cleaner and let it fast idle for *a while* instead of just doing two oil changes 5 minutes apart.

I vote for fix the problem, but that option isn't in the poll. You probably don't need to take the engine out, if anything is going on in the timing system, that's doable in place, but since you say you've checked the actual timing, then you probably were in there already, and it's probably something stupid that was missed.

[BlueLine]

Originally Posted by RZNT4R

Hopefully you'll update with more of the diagnostic because right now it sounds like a bunch of parts were changed and no actual diagnostic was done, which is a big no-no.

Granted, there isn't a lot of diagnostic associated with these codes: dtc confirmation -> active test -> dtc confirmation -> check timing -> check ocv -> check cam sprocket -> clean oil system -> dtc confirmation -> replace ecm if you haven't found the problem by now.

I would add that it's probably good practice to check oil pressure even if it's not in the diagnostic chart, and the specified way of cleaning the lubrication system is a bit half assed. I would heat soak the engine then add a crankcase cleaner and let it fast idle for *a while* instead of just doing two oil changes 5 minutes apart.

I vote for fix the problem, but that option isn't in the poll. You probably don't need to take the engine out, if anything is going on in the timing system, that's doable in place, but since you say you've checked the actual timing, then you probably were in there already, and it's probably something stupid that was missed.

I updated my first posted...

[RZNT4R]

Wait... this started after a clutch replacement... did you take the flywheel off?

[BlueLine]

Originally Posted by RZNT4R

Wait... this started after a clutch replacement... did you take the flywheel off?

Yes because I was going to replace it with a light weight flywheel. Ended up not wanting the new flywheel because they shipped me the ultra low weight version it was like 8 lbs so I reinstalled the factory one back to where it was relative to the small Dow type hole.

[RZNT4R]

So I am to presume you are 100% sure you put the tone wheel in the right place?

Before you tear everything out (which I'm sure you don't need to), just do a real crankcase flush with a crankcase cleaner and check oil pressure.

[BlueLine]

Originally Posted by RZNT4R

So I am to presume you are 100% sure you put the tone wheel in the right place?

Before you tear everything out (which I'm sure you don't need to), just do a real crankcase flush with a crankcase cleaner and check oil pressure.

Yes, I am 100% sure. I spent 17 years as an aircraft mechanic. I follow technical notes/orders to a T.

The engine is out of the car, I will perform a compression and leaked down check. I plan on cleaning the case, and marking the alignment markings with fluorescent marks to make seeing it in photos easier.

[RZNT4R]

I just wanted to make sure, that tone wheel has apparently fooled many.

[BlueLine]

never updated this thread as I got side tracked in life. It ended up being a bad crank shaft position sensor...anyways I wanted to come back and say thanks to everyone who PM'd me or posted here.

the car will start getting some more upgrades soon...

[vitzgram]

never updated this thread as I got side tracked in life. It ended up being a bad crank shaft position sensor...anyways I wanted to come back and say thanks to everyone who PM'd me or posted here.

Hey mate, I have the same P0021 code after an engine swap. May I ask how did you fix the bad crank shft position sensor? Did you just get a new one then the code is gone? Thanks!