Harrop TVS86 Owners Thread

[Brz-123]

Originally Posted by Sam86

Yea I’m aware of all this, I’m not in America I am local to the Harrop warehouse.
The catback included is XFORCE. Header $500-600 aud, catback, $850 AUD. Harrop flex fuel kit + 85mm pulley - $1600 AUD.
The kit price I referenced (HKS/ AVO) were the full bolt on packages also including the necessary exhaust components.

Harrop SC by itself, is 8.3k AUD.
Stage 3 AVO turbo kit with a full 3’ headerback exhaust, BOV, rated for 290-350whp on regular gas is 7.9k AUD
https://www.carmodsaustralia.com.au/...rbo-Kit-BRZ/86

Do you see the point I’m trying to make?
Harrop SC + exhaust/ supporting mods- Roughly 11-12k AUD (using their cheap included exhaust) and you can expect 260-290 wheel on e85 (based on the numbers people have reported)
Vs
AVO turbo + exhaust/ supporting modes- 7.9k AUD and you can expect 290 wheel as a minimum without e85

Again I don’t want a turbo but you are getting your moneys worth with kits such as AVO, HKS, SME and have a lot more flexibility with tuning your desired power output.
Get the SC and are underwhelmed, nothing you can really do besides build the motor. Wouldn’t be a problem if the price wasn’t significantly higher.
If it was priced slightly higher than the Sprintex kit then you would be getting what you pay for and that price would be more reasonable. If it made the power their website claims (305kw crank on e85 with 85mm pulley and exhaust), it would be worth the price- but from what I’ve seen, it doesn’t

I see the point you are trying to make but totally don't get your analysis. So its an invalid one.

1. You keep saying that Harrop kit does not make 305 but makes 205 or something much much lower than advertised based on random dyno charts. Go ask Harrop if you are that close , if they will commit to the number and do a before and after on the same dyno. They have a reputation to keep so should do it.
2. In your country the best of the best tuners are MRT performance and they fit all brands. Give them a call and ask. If they say their results for Harrop are underwhelming, then I hear what you say.

For now, your paper analysis based on global dyno charts is totally flawed! And if you don't want to listen or speak to real people / experts at MRT or Harrop and get committed gains for your money, then good luck. I give up now.

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[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by Sam86

I wasn't calling it underwhelming as a personal experience, I was saying from that standpoint that if you get a SC and are underwhelmed by it or it doesn't meet your expectation, there's not much else you can really do to increase the power like you can with a turbo kit before you have to start putting lots of cash into it.
You can say you personally like the kit and that's great. I hope if I paid that much I would be too. But if I was a customer that purchased Harrops "305kw" package and my dyno results were 200kw at the wheels I would feel ripped off. Sure dynos are different but 105kw of loss?? even accounting for dynos reading higher/ lower that is a huge margin
Can I ask you, before you bought your Harrop kit, did you do any NA mods such as E85/ Headers. Have you driven a turbo 86 or any other SC 86 that you are comparing your kit to?

Your entire argument against the Harrop is your personal assessment of "underwhelming" real world performance stats.

But, you won't be underwhelmed if your expectations are realistic... power measurements at the crank, mean very little in car on the road. It is entirely normal for manufactures to quote a figure (for almost anything) that might only be achievable under their own particular "perfect" conditions.
Was power actually measured at the crank, or was it calculated? If it was measured at the crank, were all the engine ancillaries operating correctly? What oil was used? What were the temps? Was the engine standard, but blueprinted? Air filter? ...

Your fundamental concerns with a supercharger about significantly increasing power involving extra engine work applies equally to turbo's... if you want reliable big power, you will need to do significant work to the engine and drive train. There is no free lunch with power vs reliability... particularly with the FA-20.

I essentially fitted the Harrop to a brand new car, after perhaps 1800km. In terms of comparisons, I haven't relied on my own judgements (other than to compare it to the Porsche 911 I sold to develop the BRZ). Instead I've let others with way more experience guide me as to its performance merits. My engine tuning Motec guy was the same guy who tuned "Nemo", and developed the PMQ EVO among many others... so not exactly your average tuner. My suspension expert is a Porsche factory driving instructor and drives hot laps for Ferrari and Lamborghini on the launch programmes. Another friend is a pro race driver instructor. They (and others) have driven many many developed BRZ/86 cars. These guys are better objective judges than I could ever dream to be.

The bottom line is that your mind is already well and truly made up and you won't be happy with a Harrop (or any supercharger at all ?).

Buy a turbo and enjoy it. Easy.

[Sam86]

Originally Posted by Brz-123

I see the point you are trying to make but totally don't get your analysis. So its an invalid one.

1. You keep saying that Harrop kit does not make 305 but makes 205 or something much much lower than advertised based on random dyno charts. Go ask Harrop if you are that close , if they will commit to the number and do a before and after on the same dyno. They have a reputation to keep so should do it.
2. In your country the best of the best tuners are MRT performance and they fit all brands. Give them a call and ask. If they say their results for Harrop are underwhelming, then I hear what you say.

For now, your paper analysis based on global dyno charts is totally flawed! And if you don't want to listen or speak to real people / experts at MRT or Harrop and get committed gains for your money, then good luck. I give up now.

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I’m not looking at random global dyno charts.
The 205kw number I quoted was directly from someone running the kit. They had their car dyno tuned by supposedly one of the best tuners in the state who had previous experience tuning Harrop kits. He told me that the 200kw wheel he made was the highest figure that tuner had made for the Harrop kit on their dyno

[Sam86]

Originally Posted by grumpysnapper

I essentially fitted the Harrop to a brand new car, after perhaps 1800km. In terms of comparisons, I haven't relied on my own judgements (other than to compare it to the Porsche 911 I sold to develop the BRZ). Instead I've let others with way more experience guide me as to its performance merits.

Ok so there’s the answer I presumed. You, and the other people you’ve let drive it are comparing it to a stock version of an 86 so with that in mind of course it’s going to feel powerful.

You said you made 220 wheel when you first fitted your kit.
Headers and E85 tune can make 190 wheel, and even just that feels like a drastic increase in power over stock. Had you have done those mods like I have, then perhaps the kit may not have been as much of a drastic improvement. You also said you’ve gone from 220 to built 350 so I don’t imagine the power was satisfactory for you to make such a large jump in power all at once

You’re clearly very biased towards the kit which is fine- I think overall the kit is sound in areas you touched on such as reliability, make and appearance, however I no longer feel it has the power capabilities that it claimed to justify its substantial cost. You haven’t really said anything to prove otherwise. I understand your real world application, but if that was the same mindset everybody took, then you wouldn’t see people modifying factory cars that already have more power than they can use in daily applications

Originally Posted by grumpysnapper

Was power actually measured at the crank, or was it calculated? If it was measured at the crank

From HARROPs site
“Quoted power figures are approximate and calculated at the flywheel, based on results on our Harrop HQ dynamometer“
Presumably the same Harrop HQ dyno they would be using when dyno tuning your kit as part of their fitting and tuning package deal

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by Sam86

Ok so there’s the answer I presumed. You, and the other people you’ve let drive it are comparing it to a stock version of an 86 so with that in mind of course it’s going to feel powerful.

You said you made 220 wheel when you first fitted your kit.
Headers and E85 tune can make 190 wheel, and even just that feels like a drastic increase in power over stock. Had you have done those mods, then perhaps the kit may not have been as much of a drastic improvement.

You’re clearly very biased towards the kit which is fine- I think overall the kit is sound in areas you touched on such as reliability, make and appearance, however I no longer feel it has the power capabilities that it claimed to justify its substantial cost. You haven’t really said anything to prove otherwise

Mate, did you even read my post?
Are you really saying that all the others (above) that have driven it have no idea?
Are you saying a comparison to a 911 doesn’t count?
Frankly you’re sounding more and more like a classic know it all keyboard warrior who values his own opinions above anything else.
Can’t believe I’ve wasted my time to try and help you understand more about a Harrop.

[Brz-123]

Originally Posted by Sam86

I’m not looking at random global dyno charts.

The 205kw number I quoted was directly from someone running the kit. They had their car dyno tuned by supposedly one of the best tuners in the state who had previous experience tuning Harrop kits. He told me that the 200kw wheel he made was the highest figure that tuner had made for the Harrop kit on their dyno

One person is statistically significant? One day sense will prevail.
You honestly need to stop analysing here and go speak to MRT and Harrop. Speak to real people who do a statistically relevant number.

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[Sam86]

Originally Posted by Brz-123

One person is statistically significant? One day sense will prevail.
You honestly need to stop analysing here and go speak to MRT and Harrop. Speak to real people who do a statistically relevant number.

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You’re nitpicking, that one person isn’t the only example I’m basing off. The other guy quoting me himself said he was only making 172kw ATW on 98 with headers/ exhaust.

I’ve asked Harrop for some clarity about the crank figures they claim vs actual wheel power and didn’t hear back from them.

Harrop has an official comparison video posted on their YouTube where at 1:15 they say their kit makes 180kw on regular petrol and up to 205kw on e85 which reflects the outcome the “one person” also experienced.


Don’t know why you guys are defending so hard rather than look at the kit objectively, the other guy especially sounds like a Harrop representative. I was an advocate of this kit under the assumption the advertised performance numbers were just slightly exaggerated, not completely misleading.
Do you guys seriously think these numbers are worth the asking price? Especially in comparison to everything else that’s available.
If you can pick it up 2nd hand for a good deal like Irace did then yea the kit would definitely be worth it, but full price? Can’t see any justification for it unless you don’t care about cost and plan to throw another 15k+ into the motor and supporting mods

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by Sam86

Don’t know why you guys are defending so hard rather than look at the kit objectively, the other guy especially sounds like a Harrop representative. I was an advocate of this kit under the assumption the advertised performance numbers were just slightly exaggerated, not completely misleading.
Do you guys seriously think these numbers are worth the asking price? Especially in comparison to everything else that’s available.
If you can pick it up 2nd hand for a good deal like Irace did then yea the kit would definitely be worth it, but full price? Can’t see any justification for it unless you don’t care about cost and plan to throw another 15k+ into the motor and supporting mods

Hi "the other guy" here... I'm assuming you're a slow learner, so just to be clear, yet again, yes I (we) think the numbers are worth it (how many times does this need to be repeated?). All the people who have driven my car think the numbers are worth it. People I respect and trust, are more than happy that the kit is performing at its peak, and think the numbers are worth it.

But you know the numbers aren't worth it, which is why everyone responding to you has clearly suggested you don't buy the kit. (You were never an "advocate" for this unit... you just wanted to be the half smart attention seeker, dissing Harrop on a Harrop thread)

We are "defending" this product because some numbers obsessed cockwomble has decided, with all his vast experience, that we are fools that don't know what we're talking about...

If you approached the kit objectively, then I would be prepared to give you some credit...but you haven't, you are completely disregarding any knowledge, feedback or opinions you're getting from this thread.

You criticise me as a Harrop representative, simply because I have taken the time and explained the reasons why people do spend the extra coin on one, and why it might be worth it for them.

One more time... and its not Harrop specific... you will have to put 15K + into the engine (and other things) if you want reliable big power.

So, perhaps you should abandon this thread and go and obsess about web sites, graphs, dyno's, assumptions, claims and counter claims on another thread.... while the rest of us actually get on with it and actually go and do shit.

Buy a good turbo. They are great too. Simple.

[Brz-123]

Originally Posted by Sam86

You’re nitpicking, that one person isn’t the only example I’m basing off. The other guy quoting me himself said he was only making 172kw ATW on 98 with headers/ exhaust.

I’ve asked Harrop for some clarity about the crank figures they claim vs actual wheel power and didn’t hear back from them.

Harrop has an official comparison video posted on their YouTube where at 1:15 they say their kit makes 180kw on regular petrol and up to 205kw on e85 which reflects the outcome the “one person” also experienced.


Don’t know why you guys are defending so hard rather than look at the kit objectively, the other guy especially sounds like a Harrop representative. I was an advocate of this kit under the assumption the advertised performance numbers were just slightly exaggerated, not completely misleading.
Do you guys seriously think these numbers are worth the asking price? Especially in comparison to everything else that’s available.
If you can pick it up 2nd hand for a good deal like Irace did then yea the kit would definitely be worth it, but full price? Can’t see any justification for it unless you don’t care about cost and plan to throw another 15k+ into the motor and supporting mods

I live in the UK, not on Harrop but on our local PD charger as I support them.
You can guess which and hence I don't go KW but HP, BHP

I'll try once more,

Our platform can only take 40- 50% more power than it came from factory reliably. Which makes it 280 to 300 BHP reliably. Came from factory rated at 200 bhp at crank.
Anything more needs a load of supporting mods and is not worth it from a price to performance ratio, which is where you are aiming. New clutch, new fuel pump, new gearbox, new injectors, forged con rods. The list goes on. So anyone aiming for >50% more power from factory is either doing the supporting mods for a shed load more cash or playing lottery.

For the 40% more power, all kits are equivalent price to performance ratio. Take turbo or SC. So stage 1/2.Makes sense?

Now if your baseline is higher, aka E85, Decat long tube manifold , 2.5 inch catback when NA , then the SC will give you a 40 -50% gain over that higher baseline as it pushes that much more air physically as its an air pump and will additionally fuel through the tune. So a bigger bang and more power. Get that logic? Which is why I say 100% more engine power than stock is possible with what Harrop have said. Is it good price to performance, No. Will doing that even be a good idea, definitely not for reasons above.

An SC cannot up its boost via software like turbos so needs a smaller pulley but as I said first, you cannot play the additional boost game till you do supporting mods or take the risk. So comparing turbo with PD SC is futile as they are different but the platform is Limiting it here not the kit.

So this is it!




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[Sam86]

Originally Posted by grumpysnapper

But you know the numbers aren't worth it, which is why everyone responding to you has clearly suggested you don't buy the kit. (You were never an "advocate" for this unit... you just wanted to be the half smart attention seeker, dissing Harrop on a Harrop thread)

We are "defending" this product because some numbers obsessed cockwomble has decided, with all his vast experience, that we are fools that don't know what we're talking about...

If you approached the kit objectively, then I would be prepared to give you some credit...but you haven't, you are completely disregarding any knowledge, feedback or opinions you're getting from this thread.

You’re angry, I get it. I would be too if I put 25k+ into a kit and motor only to discover that there are numerous examples of people running the same numbers “reliably” with just a 6-8k bolt-on turbo kit on a stock motor. Or that you spent 8k initially on the kit just to make an additional 30 wheel hp over someone NA with a $500 off the shelf e85 tune

You’ve said you don’t want to waste time replying, and frankly I don’t want you to either. You’re not clear in the things you say. When you say people are impressed by your kit are you referring to your built motor 350whp set up, or your 230whp stock motor Harrop set up? Don’t know, you didn’t clarify. When you say you’re comparing your 911 to your Harrop, is that your 230whp set up, or your built motor set up? Don’t know, you didn’t clarify (not that comparing how a Porsche you used to own feels to a BRZ makes much sense).

You say I wasn’t objective. I don’t agree. I said that I agreed with most of what you said about the kit, reliability, build quality, appearance. Just not the power output. I have said I believe as a whole it’s a good kit, just not for the price it’s listed at. I have linked you the official Harrop power claim, I have provided you the quote that the power they claim has infact been calculated at a dyno. That is the essence of my argument against the kit, and that part hasn’t seemed to have registered with you.

You keep replying to me as if the original post I made was even directed at you. I never “dissed” Harrop, I simply wanted to know why they were advertising their kit to make a certain amount of power, when the actual result from various people- your results included- were significantly lower than those claimed numbers.

I’m not saying their claimed numbers aren’t possible if you go the route you did and build the motor. What my issue is, is in the way it’s misleading on HARROPs part.

A good example is the Sprintex 310 Supercharger- They state in their advertising that a built motor is necessary to make the numbers they claim. If Harrop did the same then there’d be no issue but they don’t. They just say, buy our $14,000 package including an exhaust, pulley and flexfluel and you will receive 305kw at the crank. Now if the kit AS ADVERTISED did make similar numbers and resulted in 310-320whp then the price would be justified but clearly it doesn’t.

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by Sam86

You’re angry, I get it. I would be too if I put 25k+ into a kit and motor only to discover that there are numerous examples of people running the same numbers “reliably” with just a 6-8k bolt-on turbo kit on a stock motor. Or that you spent 8k initially on the kit just to make an additional 30 wheel hp over someone NA with a $500 off the shelf e85 tune

Please, please, please put your money where your mouth is and chuck a turbo on a stock motor and chase big numbers.

Please, please keep thinking that torque doesn't matter.

Please keep labouring the same point endlessly (yes we know you think its misleading, yes we know you think its terrible value for money, yes we know every single other FI manufacturer in the world makes more power, yes we know you think a standard FA-20 can easily cope with 400HP)

Please keep taking other people for fools (did you just discover the word "clarify" and thought it sounded clever?)

Please keep thinking I'm angry about my car... when in fact no car has ever made me happier and want to drive more.

Although you could just start asking, listening, thinking, experiencing and learning about stuff that you are interested in.

Or continue being a cockwomble.

fyi... it is actually possible to compare different cars relative performance.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Sam86

You’re angry, I get it. I would be too if I put 25k+ into a kit and motor only to discover that there are numerous examples of people running the same numbers “reliably” with just a 6-8k bolt-on turbo kit on a stock motor. Or that you spent 8k initially on the kit just to make an additional 30 wheel hp over someone NA with a $500 off the shelf e85 tune

You’ve said you don’t want to waste time replying, and frankly I don’t want you to either. You’re not clear in the things you say. When you say people are impressed by your kit are you referring to your built motor 350whp set up, or your 230whp stock motor Harrop set up? Don’t know, you didn’t clarify. When you say you’re comparing your 911 to your Harrop, is that your 230whp set up, or your built motor set up? Don’t know, you didn’t clarify (not that comparing how a Porsche you used to own feels to a BRZ makes much sense).

You say I wasn’t objective. I don’t agree. I said that I agreed with most of what you said about the kit, reliability, build quality, appearance. Just not the power output. I have said I believe as a whole it’s a good kit, just not for the price it’s listed at. I have linked you the official Harrop power claim, I have provided you the quote that the power they claim has infact been calculated at a dyno. That is the essence of my argument against the kit, and that part hasn’t seemed to have registered with you.

You keep replying to me as if the original post I made was even directed at you. I never “dissed” Harrop, I simply wanted to know why they were advertising their kit to make a certain amount of power, when the actual result from various people- your results included- were significantly lower than those claimed numbers.

I’m not saying their claimed numbers aren’t possible if you go the route you did and build the motor. What my issue is, is in the way it’s misleading on HARROPs part.

A good example is the Sprintex 310 Supercharger- They state in their advertising that a built motor is necessary to make the numbers they claim. If Harrop did the same then there’d be no issue but they don’t. They just say, buy our $14,000 package including an exhaust, pulley and flexfluel and you will receive 305kw at the crank. Now if the kit AS ADVERTISED did make similar numbers and resulted in 310-320whp then the price would be justified but clearly it doesn’t.

You are right. No need to troll or make anyone feel bad for their decisions. If you are convinced a turbo is the way to go, which it sounds like you are convinced, then move on.

A turbo is cheaper power. You can get a turbo kit for $750 on eBay and have a fabricator do the rest and after a tune you could be blowing up a motor for under $2500. Seriously, you are right. It is your best option to cheaply get into and past 350whp 275wtq into rod breaking territory.

As far as Harrop’s advertising, it is accurate, but who really cares? Dynos are tools for tuning; the accuracy is always questionable. Are you planning on building a motor? If not then there will be enough torque to snap rods. I would know. I snapped mine on a stock motor at a bar of boost on their 75mm pulley, and their pulleys go to 65mm. Expect 400+whp and 300+wtq on the 65mm pulley. You will need a transmission upgrade, besides a built engine to get there more reliably, and you will need a larger crank pulley if you want to break 450whp, but you would be over-spinning the SC at that point too, so a larger displacement supercharger would be needed, but realistically, you should just go turbo unless you prefer the power delivery of a supercharger. In that case, I don’t think the manifold design allows SC upgrades to say the TVS 1740 or 1900, but it might. You would have to ask Harrop, as no one here has done it that I know of.

Regardless, if you plan to stay with a stock motor then there is more than enough potential for the kit to exceed the strength of the stock rods. Remember, this is a premium kit, so there is a premium price. The fit and finish are OEM. The SC is inverted and sits low on the motor. The power delivery is the closest you will get to dropping an LS1 or a high displacement V6 into the car. I’m not talking peak numbers; I am talking power delivery across the rev range. Most people buying this kit are getting it for the quality, the fit and looks (being able to fit a strut tower brace) and the type of power delivery (see dyno below on E85 and 75mm pulley with headers and a stock motor—not my dyno). If they build the motor, but don’t crank up the boost it is because they want reliability, but it isn’t because the SC can’t deliver more power. Doubling or adding 100% more power is enough for most people or even too much for some people, and this SC will do that and then some.

Again, just get a cheap turbo kit if you want the most bang for your buck, and if you have questions or concerns about Harrop’s advertising or stated figures then you can call them. We have nothing to do with their advertising. Again, in the end it really doesn’t matter because most people don’t do a built motor and most who do don’t push too much higher, preferring to just add reliability, because of the limits of the transmission. Very, very few have a built motor and transmission swap. Harrop uses PPG straight cut dog gears, for instance, on their time attack car, which is running 22psi and making like 450whp, but it is a 2.1L. The 65mm pulley does 17.5psi. They got 428whp and 335wtq at 19psi with their 2.1L engine and larger TB and CAI with headers, etc. At 22psi they were easily over 450whp, so that is the potential if you want to replicate their build. Again a cheap eBay turbo kit will do that all day long, so for sure do that if you want to maximize your dollar.

[Sam86]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

You are right. No need to troll or make anyone feel bad for their decisions. If you are convinced a turbo is the way to go, which it sounds like you are convinced, then move on.

Not trying to troll, I tried replying constructively but he continues to throw insults in every reply as he’s taking the criticisms of the kit as a personal attack, despite my criticisms not even relating to his circumstances as he has a built motor and I am arguing it’s application on a stock motor as offered by Harrop.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

(see dyno below on E85 and 75mm pulley with headers and a stock motor—not my dyno).

The dyno you provided is what I initially believed the kit to be capable of, as it comes in the advertised “305kw” package. The other guy replying to me with the kit doesn’t agree with what you’re saying, see quote (and because I saw you mention it in an earlier reply to this quote, he is speaking in WHP not kw

Originally Posted by grumpysnapper

I think your expectations might be a little optimistic....280/320 at the wheels on 98/E85 with a standard pulley?.

He is essentially saying that the Package provided by Harrop, with the claimed 305kw is not capable of making 300+ wheel as advertised WITHOUT going the route of extensive supporting mods and built motor.

Other individuals who are running the SAME mods as the Harrop “305kw” package showed that they were making 200kw wheel on e85 with upgraded pulley.

That is where my argument against the kit is stemming from. The kit provided by Harrop in their “305kw crank” package is resulting in 200kw wheel which- regardless of some power exaggeration and accounting for discrepancies in the dyno- is a significant difference in advertised VS actual power which is what I am not happy about.

Again- using the Sprintex 310 kit. That kit is advertised as making 260kw at the wheels, however they state you MUST have a built motor.
Harrop doesn’t do this, they just offer the kit as supplied and say to expect 305kw crank.

Whether the actual power you are getting even matches the 305kw crank they claim as is (with only the mods they include in that package) is a different argument as you say it’s possible, just itd be extremely unreliable, and the other guy says it’s an unrealistic expectation

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

. Expect 400+whp and 300+wtq on the 65mm pulley. You will need a transmission upgrade, besides a built engine to get there more reliably, and you will need a larger crank pulley if you want to break 450whp, but you would be over-spinning the SC at that point too

I never said I expected the kit to make 400 or even 350wheel on the stock motor. I have said several times in this thread I expected the “305kw” package to make 310-320wheel hp and was told that isn’t the case and to expect 260 wheel hp (with e85 and upgraded pulley).

With a good kit and a good tuner many on this forum and people I know personally have had reliable experience with bolt on kits on their stock motor making 300-340wheel hp. If this kit can make 300 wheel on a stock motor with the parts included in HARROP’s package then great- I don’t know why others in this thread told me otherwise

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Sam86

Not trying to troll, I tried replying constructively but he continues to throw insults in every reply as he’s taking the criticisms of the kit as a personal attack, despite my criticisms not even relating to his circumstances as he has a built motor and I am arguing it’s application on a stock motor as offered by Harrop.

The dyno you provided is what I initially believed the kit to be capable of, as it comes in the advertised “305kw” package. The other guy replying to me with the kit doesn’t agree with what you’re saying, see quote (and because I saw you mention it in an earlier reply to this quote, he is speaking in WHP not kw

He is essentially saying that the Package provided by Harrop, with the claimed 305kw is not capable of making 300+ wheel as advertised WITHOUT going the route of extensive supporting mods and built motor.

Other individuals who are running the SAME mods as the Harrop “305kw” package showed that they were making 200kw wheel on e85 with upgraded pulley.

That is where my argument against the kit is stemming from. The kit provided by Harrop in their “305kw crank” package is resulting in 200kw wheel which- regardless of some power exaggeration and accounting for discrepancies in the dyno- is a significant difference in advertised VS actual power which is what I am not happy about.

Again- using the Sprintex 310 kit. That kit is advertised as making 260kw at the wheels, however they state you MUST have a built motor.
Harrop doesn’t do this, they just offer the kit as supplied and say to expect 305kw crank.

Whether the actual power you are getting even matches the 305kw crank they claim as is (with only the mods they include in that package) is a different argument as you say it’s possible, just itd be extremely unreliable, and the other guy says it’s an unrealistic expectation

I never said I expected the kit to make 400 or even 350wheel on the stock motor. I have said several times in this thread I expected the “305kw” package to make 310-320wheel hp and was told that isn’t the case and to expect 260 wheel hp (with e85 and upgraded pulley).

With a good kit and a good tuner many on this forum and people I know personally have had reliable experience with bolt on kits on their stock motor making 300-340wheel hp. If this kit can make 300 wheel on a stock motor with the parts included in HARROP’s package then great- I don’t know why others in this thread told me otherwise

Seems like you are focusing on the wrong things. This is what is important:

--What is the max hp/tq this motor can take? 350whp is talked about more than torque, but it is torque that is going to break rods, specifically low end torque. A turbo is going to make more torque and more torque down low, and a centrifugal SC is going to make even less torque down low than a PD SC, so when people say 350whp, it is a fairly arbitrary number. For some people, 300whp might be the max without seeing a huge drop-off in OEM reliability. For others, 250whp is the max for reliable track performance. The point: there is no point in arguing the specifics about max potential for the car because it will depend on many factors, and as such is the case, we can't go by any single person's opinion or even a few anecdotal cases. This is true of what Harrop or any other manufacture quotes because they don't know your application.

--After considering the above, this SC has more than enough headroom for destroying rods. If someone's plans are to maintain a stock engine then they could max out the engine's potential without ever adding secondary modifications like headers, mid pipe, front pipe, TB, CAI, etc, assuming they have the injector size and E85 for 17.5psi of boost. Add those things to the 65mm pulley, and you will be going above and beyond on destroying the rods. As I posted above, the 350whp/275wtq was achieved with a 75mm pulley and Ace headers, so a 65mm would destroy a motor.

--After considering the above, who cares what Harrop quotes for peak hp/tq for specific modifications at any particular pulley size when you will not be maxing out the SC and when there are any number of factors that can influence peak hp/tq from weather to dynos to variances in motors to variances in tuning to ethanol concentration? I don't know that we have enough information to conclude that Harrop is being misleading or not. Irregardless, they make it clear that the kit is capable of 17.5psi at 65mm, so that should be enough. Besides that, there are flow charts on the TVS1320, so you can do the math yourself to know what it is capable, but it can do over 20psi.

--The TVS 1320 is really just getting warm at 95mm. Power will not follow a linear line as pulley size is increased because the SC is really reaching more of its efficiency range around a bar or more of boost. This is one reason why the Cosworth kit uses the TVS 900 because they have designed their kit around the limits of the stock motor and to be in a more efficient range throughout a typical stock motor application and range of boost levels. Like sizing a turbo for a given application, you can play with SC size in order to minimize heat and maximize efficiency based on your power goals. With that said, there isn't going to be enough difference in thermal efficiency to make a huge difference for most people, so Harrop went bigger to have the overhead for stock motors and built motors.

In summary, the SC has more than enough headroom to exceed the limits of the motor with just pulley upgrades, irregardless of application. Adding modifications will unlock more power and improve thermal efficiency of the entire system, but this may also require a larger pulley to not exceed the torque limit, which may put the SC in a less thermal efficiency range, since it likes smaller pulleys. It gets complicated, so typically modifications are designed for torque fill like more top end torque if torque drops off and if someone plans to mostly be high in the RPMs like on a track. Some might add an Ace header for low end torque and more power, but adding a smaller pulley might do the same too, yet possibly at the cost of thermal efficiency, maybe. Here is @byun's car with the same tuner on 85mm pulley on a hot day (100F) with E60 comparing e-tune and dyno tune, so you can compare it to the 75mm pulley.