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Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


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Old 05-06-2020, 12:54 PM   #197
Ernest72
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Fight all you want. Rarely are things black and white, usually shades of gray.

What I read is that doing a swap, whether the STI version, the caddy version is not optimal and not a real upgrade. If done for show for street and DD, the implications are likely not an issue. If autox and track are your thing then likely it’s not a good thing and you would be better off with brakes designed for the car.

As far as brembo having an interest, they are just stating the facts. Any product is designed for a certain use in general, people will always take these products and adapt them to other things. Sometimes it works, other times it does not.

There is likely someone tracking with swapped brakes and it’s working, but perhaps not as good as a purpose built BBK. The difference in price and performance may be worth it to that person or not. Truth is if you had the money you would do it right.
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Old 05-06-2020, 01:17 PM   #198
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Fight all you want. Rarely are things black and white, usually shades of gray.

What I read is that doing a swap, whether the STI version, the caddy version is not optimal and not a real upgrade. If done for show for street and DD, the implications are likely not an issue. If autox and track are your thing then likely itís not a good thing and you would be better off with brakes designed for the car.

As far as brembo having an interest, they are just stating the facts. Any product is designed for a certain use in general, people will always take these products and adapt them to other things. Sometimes it works, other times it does not.

There is likely someone tracking with swapped brakes and itís working, but perhaps not as good as a purpose built BBK. The difference in price and performance may be worth it to that person or not. Truth is if you had the money you would do it right.
Well yes obviously if we all had the money we would do it right. But i feel it is an upgrade just in rotor size alone. But I am getting better on the track and starting to find the limits of my stock brakes with SS lines Track Pads and rotors and DOT 4. If i can retrofit STI brakes that will cool better and have arguably more torque for $1500 for all 4 axles vs buying a $2000 set for just the front that will mess up the bias even more then i think i should do it. Or $4000+ for a full set of upgraded brakes. That's a crazy amount of money if I am not building a purpose built race car.
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Old 05-06-2020, 03:10 PM   #199
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Well yes obviously if we all had the money we would do it right. But i feel it is an upgrade just in rotor size alone. But I am getting better on the track and starting to find the limits of my stock brakes with SS lines Track Pads and rotors and DOT 4. If i can retrofit STI brakes that will cool better and have arguably more torque for $1500 for all 4 axles vs buying a $2000 set for just the front that will mess up the bias even more then i think i should do it. Or $4000+ for a full set of upgraded brakes. That's a crazy amount of money if I am not building a purpose built race car.
You get net less effective stopping power, because ABS engages anytime *one* wheel loses traction. When you unbalance the front/rear bias, you now enable one axle to do more work, causing the other axle to do less work, causing ABS to intervene earlier.

Stopping distances are hurt, as is ability to properly trail brake and load.

Remember, stopping distances are determined by tire grip, not by "how powerful" your brakes are or "how much torque/friction you have". By altering the bias, you increase the rate at which the two tires are overwhelmed, and decreas the rate at which the other two are overwhelmed.
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Old 05-06-2020, 03:23 PM   #200
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And as brake fluid used is referred as generic as DOT4 with no mention of dry/wet boiling temps, and pads are as generic named "track pads" without specific vendor and pad compound type, i suspect that there is lot left on the table even with stock brakes capabilities/thermal capacity.
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Old 05-06-2020, 03:45 PM   #201
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Well yes obviously if we all had the money we would do it right. But i feel it is an upgrade just in rotor size alone. But I am getting better on the track and starting to find the limits of my stock brakes with SS lines Track Pads and rotors and DOT 4. If i can retrofit STI brakes that will cool better and have arguably more torque for $1500 for all 4 axles vs buying a $2000 set for just the front that will mess up the bias even more then i think i should do it. Or $4000+ for a full set of upgraded brakes. That's a crazy amount of money if I am not building a purpose built race car.
If it is working for you then go with it. Without real world data to compare with others with different setups, it will be difficult to assess. Itís not like you are a race team that can analyze everything to death. You are literally just going by feel and your track times. If the correct brakes improve your times by a ďxĒ amount is it worth twice the cost. Only you can answer that question. But based on what many are saying and brembo themselves, your braking could be better. The cost/benefit will always be debatable and subjective.
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Old 05-06-2020, 04:42 PM   #202
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Hardly ever mentioned...poor man's bbk 2015+ wrx calipers (not sti brembos). Can be had for $100 used. Centric rotors run $80 a pair. Rotors last about 25 days if not more. I usually change them out half way through the season, so never when beyond 25 days. Brake bias changed? Yes. Dust boot burns out? Yes. At $100 a pair I just trash them at the end of the season and install a fresh pair.

Clears base stock 17in wheels so I can use them for daily and in the winter. And not having to worry about fitment issues (Enkei 17x9 45mm for example is a hard fit for most if not all bbks).

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Old 05-06-2020, 04:56 PM   #203
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Thanks Mike that was very well written and very informative. And while yes there is definitely room for improvement with my current setup going to dba 2 piece rotors and super expensive pads. I'm currently running Powerstop track day spec pad and they work damn good for the price and Napa dot 4 which has been proven to be good as well. But is spending $800+ going to get me to the base of what a brembo would perform at be worth it? Who's to say, could be. So let's look at three options for brembos the STI, Grand Turismo, and the PP brakes. All use the same size rotor and pads, all have different piston sizes so each will have a different change on bias. So I guess you would have to know what the change is and if its in acceptable range does more rear bias work better more front? As close to stock?
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Old 05-07-2020, 01:34 PM   #204
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You get net less effective stopping power, because ABS engages anytime *one* wheel loses traction. When you unbalance the front/rear bias, you now enable one axle to do more work, causing the other axle to do less work, causing ABS to intervene earlier.

Stopping distances are hurt, as is ability to properly trail brake and load.

Remember, stopping distances are determined by tire grip, not by "how powerful" your brakes are or "how much torque/friction you have". By altering the bias, you increase the rate at which the two tires are overwhelmed, and decreas the rate at which the other two are overwhelmed.
With upgraded brakes and tires (especially the tires) wouldn't you expect increased load transfer to the front (assuming straight line braking) and as such you would actually WANT to change the bias to the front as there's more grip available there and now less in the rear?

I'm just bench racing with this idea though since I'm using the stock wheels for winter driving, and Canadian winters (salt) I won't be doing any bbk upgrades anyway.
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Old 05-07-2020, 01:53 PM   #205
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The more there is grip, indeed, more mass transfer & "ideal" bias is more to front (and vice versa, the less grip, till even something like on gravel road or on ice, "ideal" is closer to 50:50). Aftermarket aero also might be reason for bias change, as it may increase overall grip and also be differently balanced front/rear downforce wise.
Then again, most people daily drive theirs instead of making track-only, and on street rarely someone drives on hoosier track slicks, if nothing else then due their wet grip, need of heatup to working temps and insane wear rate. As for generic case, for most, that mostly drive theirs daily, only fraction of which, only sometimes take it to the track, obviously stock bias fits well most of a time. But those that made their dedicated track car usually are competent enough on wished best setups and may have also brake biasing valve installed. Or in simplest case - use staggered brakepad compounds front-rear.
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Old 05-07-2020, 04:16 PM   #206
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Thanks Mike that was very well written and very informative. And while yes there is definitely room for improvement with my current setup going to dba 2 piece rotors and super expensive pads. I'm currently running Powerstop track day spec pad and they work damn good for the price and Napa dot 4 which has been proven to be good as well. But is spending $800+ going to get me to the base of what a brembo would perform at be worth it? Who's to say, could be. So let's look at three options for brembos the STI, Grand Turismo, and the PP brakes. All use the same size rotor and pads, all have different piston sizes so each will have a different change on bias. So I guess you would have to know what the change is and if its in acceptable range does more rear bias work better more front? As close to stock?
A/B testing stock vs frankenstein with a datalogger such as an AIM Solo DL or AIM Solo 2 DL, is pretty conclusive.

Every time I've seen this comparison done, the result is the same; the frankenstein "upgrade" dramatically hurts stopping distances.

If your metric is disc life, rather than stopping distance, well, remember you're spending a lot of money to go fast on track, not to save rotor cost that ultimately amortizes into the same value as a few gallons of gas per track day.
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Old 05-07-2020, 05:20 PM   #207
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Just to throw it out. When we first got the car we wondered how it would do at the track as delivered. We got black flagged for having bright cherry rotors in the front. They were afraid we would boil the fluid and have no brakes. (track pads in stock calipers) We changed to bigger disks, four pot calipers cooling duck and stainless lines. Cooling was our issue not stopping distance. Never had a balance problem, and have not had a problem since. I use as a DD with no problem either. I have never felt the ABS kick in but maybe it is so much better than the old units I can not feel it.


These cars are amazing, even in stock dress. Only when we push it way beyond normal do little things appear.




edit: it is a system designed for the car, but not Brembo.
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Old 05-07-2020, 05:58 PM   #208
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And as brake fluid used is referred as generic as DOT4 with no mention of dry/wet boiling temps, and pads are as generic named "track pads" without specific vendor and pad compound type, i suspect that there is lot left on the table even with stock brakes capabilities/thermal capacity.
I was thinking the same. There is a pretty dramatic difference in "track pads and fluid." Even though I am on a BBK I doubt I am beyond the capability of the stock calipers if I was running good pads and fluid. There are enough fast 86Cup guys on stock calipers to prove it.
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Old 05-11-2020, 05:21 PM   #209
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I was thinking the same. There is a pretty dramatic difference in "track pads and fluid." Even though I am on a BBK I doubt I am beyond the capability of the stock calipers if I was running good pads and fluid. There are enough fast 86Cup guys on stock calipers to prove it.
They also regularly swap their calipers for fresh ones. The difference when its degrading over time isn't noticeable, but as soon as the fresh caliper goes on, the change back to "proper" is very noticeable.

Same as swapping stock dampers for fresh stock ones after 5 track days.

This applies not just to fast guys but also anyone who's not a complete novice, and has even the faintest understand of threshold braking.
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Old 05-11-2020, 05:28 PM   #210
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They also regularly swap their calipers for fresh ones. The difference when its degrading over time isn't noticeable, but as soon as the fresh caliper goes on, the change back to "proper" is very noticeable.

Same as swapping stock dampers for fresh stock ones after 5 track days.

This applies not just to fast guys but also anyone who's not a complete novice, and has even the faintest understand of threshold braking.
Are they scoring the piston bores that badly?
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