New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

What do you mean by not going to help much? You mean it’ll lose its utility because it would need to recharge often due to the low range with loads, or are you trying to say something else?

I would say that the statistics on towing, show most campers and boaters who tow don’t go far like 15-30 miles, so towing won’t be a huge issue for even the vast majority of towers and haulers. Few will truly have problems with EV trucks as-is for 99% of their days or better. Long haulers would be the rare exception.

I am friends with a bunch of contractors, and none of them could own an EV truck due to range when towing or loaded. All the other performance metrics and storage capability are there, but when you regularly have to tow a piece of equipment or a flatbed loaded with materials several times a week, the range just doesn't cut it.

I was really interested in an EV truck until the towing range tests started coming out. It would be perfect for me if I could at least get 150mi towing before I would be comfortable with it.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

It's towing, and it is also bed load. I don't know what stats you're looking at but nobody I know that tows something goes 60 miles round trip as an average. Even with that the range on a Ford Lightning, for example, drops to just around 120 miles with a moderate load based on everything I've seen. So, at highway speeds you are stopping less than every 90 miles to charge.

Problem not solved.

Most tow trips are not long trips, and most things people tow like a jet ski or small trailer could be towed with a much smaller vehicle. Most 4 cylinder vehicles have enough torque and the payloads of most vehicles can handle plenty of weight. Most trucks use 2WD for the vast majority of time on road or during towing, as driving with 4WD on dry pavement is bad. Despite the rare need for 4WD or AWD, it has moved up in popularity due to its perceived necessity, safety and performance, but it is way overplayed.

Admittedly I can’t seem to find the article I read in the past talking about most people who tow do so with light loads for short distances like to a local lake to fish or ski, or for carrying landscaping equipment to work, or small loads to tge local dump. Long distance towing was far less common. Most don’t own a big enough boat or trailer to exceed the needs of a light duty truck or even of many small CUVs.

The automotive business intelligence company says that “50.8% of new vehicles sold in the 2020 model year have been equipped with four-wheel drive. If trends hold, four-wheel drive will represent more than 50% of the market for the first time ever.” This means that two-wheel drive in the guise of front- and rear-wheel drive make up 49.2 percent of sales so far, which is an outstanding statistic by all accounts[1].

The fact that they skew far more male—87% versus an industry average of 57%[2]

According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less [2].

“When asked for attributes that are important to them,” Edwards says, “truck owners oversample in ones like: the ability to outperform others, to look good while driving, to present a tough image, to have their car act as extension of their personality, and to stand out in a crowd.” Trucks deliver on all of that. At a price [2].

“Chevrolet is confident these engines meet or exceed most trailering needs, as 96 percent of light-duty pickup owners tow less than 10,000 pounds, according to data from MaritzCX an InMoment Company,” the automaker states [3].

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I am friends with a bunch of contractors, and none of them could own an EV truck due to range when towing or loaded. All the other performance metrics and storage capability are there, but when you regularly have to tow a piece of equipment or a flatbed loaded with materials several times a week, the range just doesn't cut it.

I was really interested in an EV truck until the towing range tests started coming out. It would be perfect for me if I could at least get 150mi towing before I would be comfortable with it.

Battery swapping would be the ideal solution someday unless ultra fast chargers make swapping unnecessary.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Battery swapping would be the ideal solution someday unless ultra fast chargers make swapping unnecessary.

If those options are available in the area. We are talking rural country here. I know of two charging stations between where we all live, and the farthest area they have been regularly working. Neither are fast charging and only one could accomodate a truck with trailer, but only if you pull in and block all 4 chargers and a handicap spot.

[Lantanafrs2]

I'm sure the k24 swap is carb approved

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

If those options are available in the area. We are talking rural country here. I know of two charging stations between where we all live, and the farthest area they have been regularly working. Neither are fast charging and only one could accomodate a truck with trailer, but only if you pull in and block all 4 chargers and a handicap spot.

The S curve for adoption tapers off, so there are late adopters still using flip phones, rotary phones and pagers. This will be true of ICEs. Until hydrogen, swapping or battery infrastructure is fully realized, there will be late adopters and special-case users who will still require ICE. The most likely scenario is that we will see a boost in range, cold weather performance and rate of charging that may resolve these issues for late adopters. The most likely solution in the short term will be plug-in hybrid trucks with ICE range extenders that are turbocharged two cylinders or something. The other likely scenario besides battery swapping are battery range-extending trailers. These would be RVs, boat trailers and flatbed trailers with their own batteries that hook up to the towing truck to provide extended range. The other option for range is for an EV to tow an owned or rented outboard motor for extended range needs on those rare events that they are traveling remote. Lots of options.



It is hard to know what the grid could look like in 30-50 years. China does things faster, but these show the speed of growth. Once everyone builds out superchargers, the growth of locations will go up even faster.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

What do you mean by not going to help much? You mean it’ll lose its utility because it would need to recharge often due to the low range with loads, or are you trying to say something else?

I would say that the statistics on towing, show most campers and boaters who tow don’t go far like 15-30 miles, so towing won’t be a huge issue for even the vast majority of towers and haulers. Few will truly have problems with EV trucks as-is for 99% of their days or better. Long haulers would be the rare exception.

I don't own a truck but if I were to purchase one the primary reason would be to tow my track/race car to the race track. Furthest one I've driven to is Sebring (12 hour drive) and nearest is VIR (90 min drive). I have a very difficult time seeing when EV trucks will be able to do those (longer) trips without being absolutely miserable and excessive time consuming. And that's fine, but I find it laughable for marketing to act like EV trucks are ready for prime time. Can most people that drive regular trucks switch to EV trucks? Probably, but those are also the people that shouldn't even have a f'ing truck in the first place

Originally Posted by Arthur-A

Sports cars / performance cars can run catless, their percentage is not that big, so they should be smog exempt anyway:P

Eh? Every street vehicle should have a cat. Their environmental benefits are HUGE. Downsides very very minor.

[Arthur-A]

Not the sports cars. Exhaust gasses should flow unrestricted.

Besides, I like to use high zddp engine oil, which can potentially clog the catalytic converter.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The S curve for adoption tapers off, so there are late adopters still using flip phones, rotary phones and pagers. This will be true of ICEs. Until hydrogen, swapping or battery infrastructure is fully realized, there will be late adopters and special-case users who will still require ICE. The most likely scenario is that we will see a boost in range, cold weather performance and rate of charging that may resolve these issues for late adopters. The most likely solution in the short term will be plug-in hybrid trucks with ICE range extenders that are turbocharged two cylinders or something. The other likely scenario besides battery swapping are battery range-extending trailers. These would be RVs, boat trailers and flatbed trailers with their own batteries that hook up to the towing truck to provide extended range. The other option for range is for an EV to tow an owned or rented outboard motor for extended range needs on those rare events that they are traveling remote. Lots of options.



It is hard to know what the grid could look like in 30-50 years. China does things faster, but these show the speed of growth. Once everyone builds out superchargers, the growth of locations will go up even faster.

You are not hauling a flatbed of siding up a 15 mile grade with a 2 cylinder turbo plug in hybrid or towing a range extender and a mini excavator. Adding a battery to a trailer is also going to increase it's weight which will require a larger tow vehicle. Until infrastructure improves it is just not viable for people who actually needs a truck in more rural area's. Like I said, there are charging stations, they just are not even useable when towing. I don't see these infrastructure changes happening in my area till long after you have them.

Personally, unless I can buy an EV that fills multiple needs, I am not going to buy one. Just buying one as a commuter is not cost effective for me.

[MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Can most people that drive regular trucks switch to EV trucks? Probably, but those are also the people that shouldn't even have a f'ing truck in the first place

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

You are not hauling a flatbed of siding up a 15 mile grade with a 2 cylinder turbo plug in hybrid or towing a range extender and a mini excavator. Adding a battery to a trailer is also going to increase it's weight which will require a larger tow vehicle. Until infrastructure improves it is just not viable for people who actually needs a truck in more rural area's. Like I said, there are charging stations, they just are not even useable when towing. I don't see these infrastructure changes happening in my area till long after you have them.

Personally, unless I can buy an EV that fills multiple needs, I am not going to buy one. Just buying one as a commuter is not cost effective for me.

The 2 cylinder isn’t to pull the load. It won’t be attached to the wheels. It will be a generator to charge the batteries like most plug-in hybrids or range extender EVs. The torque of the EV motors will be fine. Imagine a Ford F150 Lightening with a 0.5-1L turbo range extender.

Adding batteries to a trailer is not an issue, as I posted previously. 96% of light duty trucks tow less than 10k pounds and have plenty of capacity to tow more. Towing an extra 500-1000 pounds on a trailer to extend the range wouldn’t be an issue, and it could more than double the range; if a car gets 250 of range with a battery having to support motors and body structure then doubling the capacity without the rest of the car should more than double the range. Range extenders of varying types could allow people to drive on EV power alone for 99% of the time and use the range extender for the rare occasion.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The 2 cylinder isn’t to pull the load. It won’t be attached to the wheels. It will be a generator to charge the batteries like most plug-in hybrids or range extender EVs. The torque of the EV motors will be fine. Imagine a Ford F150 Lightening with a 0.5-1L turbo range extender..

Sorry, but truck folks are going to buy either hybrid or full ICE not this Frankenstein solution.

GM (or someone, but GM already knows how to do it) should have built a "Volt tech" truck to solve this problem. It works great on locomotives and they likely would not be able to keep up with demand.

If someone would build a Volt type vehicle (of any type) with a 200 mile EV range, I would buy it today. Unfortunately that will never exist.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The 2 cylinder isn’t to pull the load. It won’t be attached to the wheels. It will be a generator to charge the batteries like most plug-in hybrids or range extender EVs. The torque of the EV motors will be fine. Imagine a Ford F150 Lightening with a 0.5-1L turbo range extender.

Adding batteries to a trailer is not an issue, as I posted previously. 96% of light duty trucks tow less than 10k pounds and have plenty of capacity to tow more. Towing an extra 500-1000 pounds on a trailer to extend the range wouldn’t be an issue, and it could more than double the range; if a car gets 250 of range with a battery having to support motors and body structure then doubling the capacity without the rest of the car should more than double the range. Range extenders of varying types could allow people to drive on EV power alone for 99% of the time and use the range extender for the rare occasion.

Yeah, I know the range extending motor doesn't power the wheels. I just don't see it being enough when they are doing as I described and the distance they are driving is on the limit of what EV trucks can tow on flat ground with a light load.

As I said, I am not talking 96% of truck owners. I am talking about guys who actually have to drive a 1 ton diesel because they are building 6 houses at a given time and moving equipment around that with the trailer, is pushing 10K. Adding batteries to every trailer they have to extend range is not really that cost effective. Between the 4 of them I know that regularly work together, we are talking like 8 different trailers. Tongue weight is also as important when talking trailer weights as gross weight. You have to keep that in mind. I'd be more effective as a whole if we just had the infrastructure to support the use then try to bandaid EV vehicles and make them more costly and heavy.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Sorry, but truck folks are going to buy either hybrid or full ICE not this Frankenstein solution.

GM (or someone, but GM already knows how to do it) should have built a "Volt tech" truck to solve this problem. It works great on locomotives and they likely would not be able to keep up with demand.

If someone would build a Volt type vehicle (of any type) with a 200 mile EV range, I would buy it today. Unfortunately that will never exist.

They will need to buy what is available. True hybrids will be removed from the market eventually. Plug-in hybrids could last, but if there are ICEs in passenger vehicles, it most likely will be as range extenders for EVs.

Range extenders are nothing new. They only activate to charge the battery once the battery level drops below a certain level, but it is super easy software to have a button to initiate tow mode to keep the range extender constantly topping off the battery. Towing uses more torque, but the needed torque or the needed power consumption is less than what a turbo two cylinder could deliver to maintain the battery charge under demanding conditions.