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BRZ Second-Gen (2022+) -- General Topics General topics for the second-gen BRZ


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Old 02-10-2021, 06:22 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Dzmitry View Post
I have never had a problem with the short 6th in my 2018.
Just at an opposite data point, when I drive to a track day at Thunderhill, it's a 3+ hour drive with 70 mph speed limit on a significant chunk of the road, and almost no traffic. The short 6th gear keeps the rpms pretty high, and I'm not enjoying the noise level. I would prefer to keep the engine below 3k rpm at those speeds, and I don't mind downshifting to 5th whenever I need more power.
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Old 02-11-2021, 07:51 AM   #72
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Just at an opposite data point, when I drive to a track day at Thunderhill, it's a 3+ hour drive with 70 mph speed limit on a significant chunk of the road, and almost no traffic. The short 6th gear keeps the rpms pretty high, and I'm not enjoying the noise level. I would prefer to keep the engine below 3k rpm at those speeds, and I don't mind downshifting to 5th whenever I need more power.
Right, that's about the worst part of it that I can think of is the sound and how it can get annoying (that also depends if you run an exhaust or not). Otherwise, RPM wise it doesn't bother me. And, certainly, I'm not looking for power in 6th either. I would like to say that 3+ hour drives is not what this car was designed for anyway, but it's hard to beat a point of you driving to track (the perfect purpose for this car). I use it a couple days a week as a partial daily to drive to work a little over an hour, and it doesn't get to me (with a Touring86 exhaust), but I'm sure it comes close. You know what I want in this little 205 HP beast??? A 7 speed MT I'll keep dreaming on.
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Old 02-11-2021, 09:04 AM   #73
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http://kaizen-factor.com/the-brz-fr-...e-know-so-far/

Just trying to find out the specifications of the transmisison used and i came across this website talking about the transmission in the twins. Seems like a variant of the AZ6 used in the Nissan Silvia was rated at 202 lb/ft, while all other variants are suspected to be capable of 124-163lb/ft.

In the 2022 i would suspect they'd have to beef it up to get to the 185lb/ft threshhold and it may not have alot of additional capacity after that (Im suspecting the upper limit is around the 200lb/ft mark).

OTherwise they'd have to go with a stronger transmission.
Its the syncros that they need to work on.

As you said, the silvia was used at 200 lb/ft. They didnt want it for the 2JZ (220 lb/ft) for the lexus 300. The new car is 184, well within those marks (which we can assume are manufacturer 'lifetime reliable' tolerances.

I'd also wonder if lexus has higher tolerance requirements owing to its premium brand too.

They said 80% was changed (which is also on the old product development brocher), not sure how accurate that is certainly says that they did a lot. One description in that article also points to gears being bigger "however clearly there are guides and larger gear teeth than the previous units" when comparing it to the altezza version), which could indicate a bit of strengthening.
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Old 02-11-2021, 09:49 AM   #74
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This is another video in a similar vein I found interesting...

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Old 02-11-2021, 12:22 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Dzmitry View Post
You know what I want in this little 205 HP beast??? A 7 speed MT I'll keep dreaming on.
Maybe don't dream too hard? Corvette tried it in the C7, it was widely panned. And IIRC the 911's 7 speed manual isn't very popular either (did they drop it and go back to a 6 speed?). A 7-speed shift pattern forces narrower gates that seems to increase mis-shfting.

While the twins may be very well suited for track duty when appropriately equipped, the percentage of owners (vs. FT86 posters) who actually track these cars is tiny, and Subaru/Toyota would be crazy to set gear and FD ratios primarily for that market. I'd like to see the current FD ratio retained but a taller sixth gear provided that allows you to lope along at about 2800 rpm at 75 mph. With the new engine's torque curve that rpm range should be more than adequate for keeping up with traffic while eliminating most engine or exhaust drone.
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Old 02-11-2021, 01:31 PM   #76
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I suppose they will choose whatever ratio gets the best MPG while allowing the car to maintain expressway speed up small inclines with cruise control on. OEMs do have to think about that kinda stuff..
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Old 02-11-2021, 01:43 PM   #77
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Maybe don't dream too hard? Corvette tried it in the C7, it was widely panned. And IIRC the 911's 7 speed manual isn't very popular either (did they drop it and go back to a 6 speed?). A 7-speed shift pattern forces narrower gates that seems to increase mis-shfting.

While the twins may be very well suited for track duty when appropriately equipped, the percentage of owners (vs. FT86 posters) who actually track these cars is tiny, and Subaru/Toyota would be crazy to set gear and FD ratios primarily for that market. I'd like to see the current FD ratio retained but a taller sixth gear provided that allows you to lope along at about 2800 rpm at 75 mph. With the new engine's torque curve that rpm range should be more than adequate for keeping up with traffic while eliminating most engine or exhaust drone.
Yes yes, and I'll dream forever because it will never happen. I will likely snag a C7 some day just for that purpose. Though if I'm not mistaking, the gearing in that is not favorable to me.

I certainly don't believe they will set gear/FD ratios for the track market. I personally love the gear ratio for the streets. After owning this car, I've learned that taller gears just aren't for me anymore (at least for the little time MT's have left in this world, I love the quick shift experience)! But what you say is true and would do no harm to the many who complain about it. Consider though, that for a significant change in sound and annoyance, you'd want to be running even less than 2800 RPM. Currently with the 4.3, you're at 3140 RPM @ 70. 340 RPM may not do enough justice to sound difference - yet it changes the 6th ratio by quite a lot: 0.767 down to 0.688. I'm sure you're doing over 70 at times, so you'll still be hitting over 3K RPM all the time. You'd be looking at low 0.6 or even high 0.5's to get what you want in 6th, and I would despise that.

In any case, I'm not here to argue over this, I understand your point, I am simply on the other side of the fence where I don't mind the ratio so much.
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Old 02-11-2021, 02:41 PM   #78
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I never thought the '13-'16 were geared "too tall", and when I bought my '17, the "better" 4.3 gears had zero to do with my decision vs. buying a used earlier model. FWIW the 4.3 gears gave the '17 a bare 0.1s advantage from 0-30 and NO advantage in acceleration from there on, despite more power!

For *most* of us, gears are WAY overrated. IMHO!
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. There's a reason why OEM's generally choose to spec a numerically higher gear ratio for their performance models and I can't think of one example that goes the other way around (assuming the powertrain is the same). Example: Camaro V6 1LE (2.77 -> 3.27), Mustang Ecoboost (3.15/3.31 -> 3.55), Chevy Corvette (4.9 -> 5.2 ((effective final drive after transfer gear)), and Mustang GT (3.31/3.55 -> 3.73).

Like mentioned, not only do you get a more fun driving experience, but you also (in most cases) are quicker on a road course. Obviously it's a generalization, but it's strong enough of one that the OEM's give their performance cars a numerically higher FD. Don't really see any examples of the other way around, and that's for a reason.
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Old 02-11-2021, 05:45 PM   #79
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. There's a reason why OEM's generally choose to spec a numerically higher gear ratio for their performance models and I can't think of one example that goes the other way around
Without bothering to look them up, I'd bet the FT86 with 4.1 or 4.3 is geared a lot lower overall vs. any of them (i.e., mph per revs per gear), even the "performance models". Out of the box, the 86/BRZ are properly geared for fun driving and most road courses.

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Like mentioned, not only do you get a more fun driving experience,
I still don't get how it's more "fun" to have shorter gears beyond a certain point. Is shifting from 2d gear at 58mph vs. 62mph really that big a deal? The slightly greater thrust you get with shorter gearing is offset by having to upshift to the next transmission gear sooner. Fun is conserved... As long as I'm comfortably in the powerband (above the dip) coming out of the lowest-speed corner at the track, I'm OK...

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but you also (in most cases) are quicker on a road course.
100% dependent on the road course. Having to upshift right before a braking zone (or hit the limiter) is annoying and will cost you in terms of lap times. 4.1 and 4.3 gears are pretty good at most of the road courses I go to, driving my '17 and my bud's '13 back-to-back on the same tracks and looking at data didn't show any advantage one vs. the other as far as 4.1 vs. 4.3 gearing.

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Obviously it's a generalization, but it's strong enough of one that the OEM's give their performance cars a numerically higher FD. Don't really see any examples of the other way around, and that's for a reason.
Was in the electric vehicle biz for a while and was responsible for speccing gear ratios. It's always a compromise. FT86 team have done a great job in this regard IMO. "More gearing" isn't always "better". And for all the people who think 4.88 is so so much "better" vs. 4.1 or 4.3, there are peeps complaining about too-high revs at cruise.

For me, I don't really care as long as 2nd gear is in the meat of the powerband around by around 40-45mph and ratios 2-6 are nice and close/tight.

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Old 02-11-2021, 06:41 PM   #80
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For me, I don't really care as long as 2nd gear is in the meat of the powerband around by around 40-45mph and ratios 2-6 are nice and close/tight.
I'd prefer 5-6 to be a bit less close than the first gen. If you are going for maximum speed, 5th is going to be your top gear on something like this. 6th is for cruising and I don't really care if it is suboptimal for acceleration.
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Old 02-11-2021, 06:54 PM   #81
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I'd prefer 5-6 to be a bit less close than the first gen. If you are going for maximum speed, 5th is going to be your top gear on something like this. 6th is for cruising and I don't really care if it is suboptimal for acceleration.
True, but I still like 6th to be close in case I add enough power or go to a fast enough track that I *need* it to be close! Tall 6th would suck for that...

4100rpm cruise at 75mph in 6th didn't bother me in the S2000...
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Old 02-11-2021, 09:26 PM   #82
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True, but I still like 6th to be close in case I add enough power or go to a fast enough track that I *need* it to be close! Tall 6th would suck for that...

4100rpm cruise at 75mph in 6th didn't bother me in the S2000...
Top speed in 5th gear is 127mph for the original FRS. Since that's about top speed for the car, I doubt there is any reason to be in 6th on a track.

For the highway, I can see needing some torque in top gear, but I think that's not going to be a problem with the new engine.
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Old 02-12-2021, 09:22 AM   #83
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Top speed in 5th gear is 127mph for the original FRS. Since that's about top speed for the car, I doubt there is any reason to be in 6th on a track.

For the highway, I can see needing some torque in top gear, but I think that's not going to be a problem with the new engine.
True, but as I was saying earlier as well, I prefer a consistent smooth transition from gear to gear with the close ratio they hold. A cruising gear would offset the 6th gear quite a bit, and that would bother me. But as everyone has made quite clear here, it is subjective. Some care and wish they had a cruising gear, and some don't and like the close ratio for all gears. IMO the best way to solve the problem and keep both worlds balanced is just a lower final diff, possibly back to 4.1 with the increased power in the new gen. Would keep it very cost effective for them as well.
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Old 02-12-2021, 05:33 PM   #84
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I still don't get how it's more "fun" to have shorter gears beyond a certain point. Is shifting from 2d gear at 58mph vs. 62mph really that big a deal?
On a typical back road with a 55 mph speed limit you get to shift 2<->3 a lot more with a 58 mph redline in 2nd

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100% dependent on the road course. Having to upshift right before a braking zone (or hit the limiter) is annoying and will cost you in terms of lap times.
That.
At Laguna Seca I have no problems with the 4.3 final drive, but at Thunderhill I keep hitting the rev limiter before every a few too many corners. I'm also quite scared of the prospect of hitting the rev limiter in T8 there as I learn to carry more speed; that corner isn't going to be very friendly in case of a sudden loss of thrust...
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