Subaru Testing a BRZ with STI Badging and a Big Wing

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I guess it is too late. Even if the team comes back, they 'll not have enough time to introduce a new generation.

He makes it sound like the team just wandered away chasing a shiny object. If they intend to continue there are people working on it. If they don't then there is a conflict with Tada's retirement announcement where he said there would be sombody replacing him.
I never put too much trust in "insider" info since those that know the real story do not talk about it even with their family much less with friends of friends. It would mean their job if the wrong info got out and they sign some pretty hefty confidentiality agreements.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yes but take the engines of that era and apply today's emission control and mileage requirements to them and see what happens.


Comparing older tech and engines can be a slippery slope.


Hell my old 440 R/T made almost as much HP at idle as it did at WOT and the torque line was almost a flat line.


Much like this (only not so high of numbers since those would have been a pipe dream back then)

Omg, that torque dip. Needs headers and a tune.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

No they don't understand and it looks they will never understand. There are people here that totaled their car, because they had issues with the traction. They didn't get their lesson. They are still saying that if they will buy again, then they 'll add forced induction.


Is the stock BRZ underpowered? Yes maybe it is a bit, but it is what it is. I have even a champion rally driver saying that if you just put more power, then it will be a beast and go constantly side ways. Even if I post this statement, the community will not accept it! It looks that they know better than pro's.

To be fair, most cars are FWD these days and people still crash those. Most of the time it's someone turning the nannies off and thinking they're better drivers than they really are.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The problem I have with the more power crowd is the whining they can't pass or the car is so slow it is undrivable. These statements are just trollish fear mongering bullshit from people that likely don't own one.
I still have not figured out where this car can be driven on public streets that 300+ HP would even be fun. Can't even open it up about 90% of the time with what it has already.

FTFY

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I think some people are afraid to go over 6000RPM.

Yep. I think the torque dip also effects this as it feels like it's running out of air when it's just getting started. Hell, I drove my old Supra for over a month without going over 4K RPM because I was used to a truck that wouldn't rev. The day I redlined that car was why I became a car person.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Disagree with the bold there Silv. It was indeed primarily designed to be a daily driver and that is what the vast majority of the buyers use it for. The beauty of the design is that it can be both a daily driver and a weekend toy. It may not be perfect for one or the other but they struck an excellent balance that not may others do right now.
As far as the modding for power goes I do believe that this is one of the only cars (at least that I have heard of) that assigned a corporate level senior manager to head up an aftermarket integration program. Instead of trying to hold it tight to them and sell catalogue items they reached out to the aftermarket and said "Here is what we have, now go out and make the stuff we know the market will want". With the wealth of aftermarket go fast parts available there is not one single excuse for all the complaining that it is too slow.

Yep, and cars like the Miata are infinitely LESS practical than this car. Back seats, big trunk, good gas mileage. But of course Toyota's marketing says it's not for getting groceries, or picking up grandma. Dumbest ad campaign ever! This car is all about having your cake and eating it too.

Originally Posted by bkharmony

Absolutely. And for the price of a BRZ/86 you can get a Mustang that does that very well. Heck, I almost went that route. Nothinng wrong with it. But I don't understand people that want this car to be a Mustang/Camaro. Or even a Cayman.

Well, the Cayman was their benchmark for this car, more so than the Miata. But it's definitely built down to the price point (though I'm definitely not complaining about quality).

Originally Posted by krayzie

Yes I find the Boxer engine in the BRZ revs up like it's missing its morning cup of coffee. Even the non-vtec Honda engines of that era revved up quite urgently and they were quite fun to drive even stock.

My hunch is that it has to do with the whole valvetrain. Chain vs belt. 2 banks vs 1, so twice as many cams, etc.

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

the tS BRZ is a disappointment... mostly cosmetic mods and some suspension tweaks (which can be done cheaper via aftermarket products)... if they had bumped the power to 220-230hp and flattened the torque dip, that would have been a great selling point... i dunno why they could only squeeze 5hp more with upgraded pistons and a better tune...

No really. Slapping some cheap coilovers on this car and expecting it to compete with factory tuned suspension makes me laugh. As we have no idea on the price of the tS so far, it's hard to get a bead on value. Keep in mind though that the Performance Pack is considered an absolute STEAL for the price. Hell, my Series.Blue couldn't have been built for less than I paid!

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Hopefully they kill a 2nd gen and just focus on the supra.

Completely different car. Like comparing a base model Camaro to a Corvette. Killing off a segment in your lineup means there's a hole for a competitor to steal sales.

Originally Posted by bkharmony

Exactly. If I have Supra money in the next couple years, I'm buying a Cayman.

I don't think FT86 fans are Toyota or Subaru fans. They're fans of well-handling, balanced, rear-wheel drive sports cars. They just don't have supercar money.

Toyota fan here, it's what got me interested in this car in the first place. The BRZ was better equipped and that blue... well I had to have it. To me the car feels like a Miata and a Supra mixed.

[SPCorBUST]

I like it. I'd carry over a lot of mods from mine and dump it into this model. In the end, for me it would be nicer inside, outside and performance-wise despite already having/had almost every STI part. In the end it would have more push to boot while carrying some exclusivity and legitimateness to it as well. For a year at least, it could stave off my desire to buy a GT4/Focus RS/Type R/Z28/GT 350R/ATS-V/M2/Golf R/WRX STI RA wow I want a lot of cars right now, you get the point. Probably sell the current one after that and get into one of those, or get one anyway and use the funds to mod again.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

He makes it sound like the team just wandered away chasing a shiny object. If they intend to continue there are people working on it. If they don't then there is a conflict with Tada's retirement announcement where he said there would be sombody replacing him.
I never put too much trust in "insider" info since those that know the real story do not talk about it even with their family much less with friends of friends. It would mean their job if the wrong info got out and they sign some pretty hefty confidentiality agreements.

I believe @DSOmegaX, because he managed to find some parts that no one else could manage. I have also an idea who are the people he is referring and I believe it is the truth. The specific people are not working directly in Toyota and have more freedom to express themselves. Tada was responsible for the entire sports car division and not only for our cars.

Having said that, I don't know what is the reason to leak such news now. I know for sure that the relations between Toyota and Subaru were not as good in the past and now looks the same. Maybe they are trying to push the issue on a higher level and find a solution before it is too late. For sure if nothing is on the papers, the date target of '19-'20 for a new model is now out of the question.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I believe @DSOmegaX, because he managed to find some parts that no one else could manage. I have also an idea who are the people he is referring and I believe it is the truth. The specific people are not working directly in Toyota and have more freedom to express themselves. Tada was responsible for the entire sports car division and not only for our cars.

Having said that, I don't know what is the reason to leak such news now. I know for sure that the relations between Toyota and Subaru were not as good in the past and now looks the same. Maybe they are trying to push the issue on a higher level and find a solution before it is too late. For sure if nothing is on the papers, the date target of '19-'20 for a new model is now out of the question.

OH I don't disbelieve him for one second! It is the people feeding the info to him that I have doubts about. Like I said the people that really know can not and will not talk.
These cars are important to us so we tend to think it is just as vital to them but in reality it is a tiny speck off to the left of one side of a far corner of their business and a simple majority of nays at a board meeting will kill it in a second. We can try to guess what they are doing based on heresy and rumours but we actually haven't got a clue what the plans are.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

For sure if nothing is on the papers, the date target of '19-'20 for a new model is now out of the question.

From the looks of their marketing especially with Lexus, they are seemingly pushing a lot of new technology for 2020 and beyond. Does it even make sense still to produce a back to basics sports car by then?

[Cal3000]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nothing wrong with wanting more power because you find it exhilarating of exciting. I went through that stage in driving 30 years ago and no longer get enjoyment from pushing a pedal for a 10 second burst of speed.

The problem I have with the more power crowd is the whining they can't pass or the car is so slow it is undrivable. These statements are just foolish.
I still have not figured out where this car can be driven on public streets that 300+ HP would even be fun. Can't even open it up about 90% of the time with what it has already.

You got bored because you never sought more power
The car was fun to drive in the stock form, but I can tell you, if you go for mountain drives and pushing yourself out of corners at higher Gs, it's a drug. The car's balance is hardly ruined at higher powers and was seemingly designed for that.
I'll stay by my claim that more power=more fun because of experience.

[2013dgmbrzdood]

I remember when people were convinced the brz was going away after 2014.

You do realize it was a collaboration that was built by subaru. When you help take design ideas and shape them into a built reality using subaru parts. Also remember toyota sucks at building fun cars hence why they asked for subarus help.

So what help is toyota going to offer at this point.? Maybe they can bring the coffee.

[Cal3000]

Originally Posted by Silver Cervy

I'm sorry, but why would you buy a car for a daily driver knowing that it will be boring, and then complain about it being boring? Why not just buy something that comes with the amount of power you want? The BRZ was not primarily designed to be a daily driver, it was designed to be a weekend toy.

I'm not saying it's wrong to simply desire a bit more power, but actively complaining and bashing Subaru about not offering it is completely childish. You should've known what you were buying when you signed the release papers, so either deal with it or move to something else. Or hey, maybe you could, I don't know, buy one of the multiple FI kits that have been specifically designed for this car?

I have 140,000 miles on my car. I'm pretty sure I've enjoyed the car more than anyone on these forums. lol. Going out on random drives 2 times every week for almost 5 years on top of my practicality driving. I can say for a fact that I probably enjoyed this platform more than you
I boosted the car after 7 months of ownership and it has added something that I would never want to take away.

So to the issue at hand; no one would complain if Subaru/Toyota would just leave the car as is instead of releasing all these special editions with minor tweaks or dress ups.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by krayzie

From the looks of their marketing especially with Lexus, they are seemingly pushing a lot of new technology for 2020 and beyond. Does it even make sense still to produce a back to basics sports car by then?

I don't think the idea of a back to basics sports car will ever die. They could just try to make the existing product better. A factory adjustable coilover kit for street and light autox/track use could be a nice idea. Maybe they could also promote worldwide some motor sport events in similar fashion with the Gazoo 86/BRZ events. However, they had to be open for the public. Not the closed events that we have here in Germany, or the ones they are preparing in Australia.

The thing is that Mr. Tada was a true believer and I am not sure if his replacer shares the same values. If the current team cannot decide on the next big thing, then it looks to me that they are far away from the original idea.

[Cal3000]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yes but take the engines of that era and apply today's emission control and mileage requirements to them and see what happens.


Comparing older tech and engines can be a slippery slope.


Hell my old 440 R/T made almost as much HP at idle as it did at WOT and the torque line was almost a flat line.


Much like this (only not so high of numbers since those would have been a pipe dream back then)

No wonder you are not an advocate for power in this platform. You don't need it

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Completely different car. Like comparing a base model Camaro to a Corvette. Killing off a segment in your lineup means there's a hole for a competitor to steal sales.

No shit!! Different car!?!? All be danged. This car doesn't even have a direct competitor in the market, it is a super niche vehicle. Neither company had this segment until this platform, and it isn't a huge selling segment.

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^Yeah well a big criticism of Subaru, and one that's warranted, is that the horsepower has stayed the same while its weight has increased. If you're gonna leave the power alone okay, then reduce weight. People want visible obvious improvements and bang for their buck. When the STI first came to the US in the early 2000s the Ford Mustang couldn't handle worth a crap and in GT form had 260 hp. Fast forward to present day and it learned how to handle, as well as offer 435 hp. Personally I have little interest in the Mustang, or STI, due to their heftiness but for some people it's a valid comparison.

EDIT: Sorry I thought you were talking about the WRX STI, not some fictional BRZ STI. Still, I think your argument is crap. Sure "some" people would have that viewpoint. But personally I think a 10:1 ratio for a sports car is just about perfect. I've owned my Cayman S for 4 years and haven't done a thing to it to gain more power - nor do I have any burning desire to do so either.

I don't understand how my argument is crap. Especially when you're basically agreeing with what I've said.

What I'm saying is that people want 300hp right now. If Subaru gave it for a 2018MY, imagine when 2019MY vehicles come around with the same 300hp. There are going to be people saying "wow, no power increase?" "wow, still 300hp. How about 350?" Because that's what people do. Obviously not everybody, but there are people out there who will never be satisfied. I'm not saying I agree with, because I don't. 200hp is fine, though I think a touch more (like s2k territory) with more mid-range torque would be plenty for the BRZ.

With regards to the STI, the 2004 weight like 3,260lbs. The 2015 weighed I think 3,380. If you think about it, that's not bad at all. 10 years and the vehicle has increased in weight by all of 100lbs, while becoming noticeably quicker around a circuit with the same hp. Furthermore, MSRP in 2004 was like 32k, and 2015 was 35k. Given how much vehicles has inflated in price over the recent years, I'd say that's pretty good.

If you're referencing the BRZ with weight and power, I don't understand. The power has stayed the same, but so has the weight, so I'm not sure that's even a relevant point.