Everyone Is Wrong About Subaru BRZ And Scion FR-S Sales

[a2cpc]

IF they don't make Toyota's Sales figures and Toyota drops it, can it survive as a Subaru only model?

[dsgerbc]

Was looking at April stats, thought I'd bump this.
BRZ: 2014 Jan-Apr: 2886, 2013 J-Apr: 2600
FRS: 2014 Jan-Apr: 4870, 2013 J-Apr: 6269

[Yoniyama]

Of course the Toybaru is a runaway success. Although the waiting list, some countries initially reported a 20-year wait, has evaporated. At an annual volume of 100,000 units, it easily outsells all competition in every market, except the VW GTI in Europe.

The enthusiasm has been dampened by big (CEL) and small mechanical problems (endless rattlings, noisy fuel pump, etc) and poor PDI (missing plugs). High pricing (before and after tax) in Europe doesn't help, either. And European car sales took a deep dive last year, followed by another automotive market crash in Japan in 2014.

Car sales in Europe have now recovered somewhat. We may also hope the mild revision (from May 2014 onwards) fixes some of the (unacceptable) big and small mechanical problems. I disagree, however, that car buyers are deterred by the lack of horsepower, choppy ride, small cabin or high noise level.

Anyway, I expect both Toyota and Subaru to carry on for another 4, 5 years, because at 100,000 units a year, it pays to continue production for several more years. Not to mention the general excitement and publicity generated by such a highly regarded sports car.

It seems unlikely that the turbo-charged FA20 by Subaru will be adopted, though. For a start, that turbo-charger is mounted at the bottom, and there is no room there in the Toybaru.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Yoniyama

At an annual volume of 100,000 units, it easily outsells all competition in every market, except the VW GTI in Europe.

What?

Toyobaru will be lucky if it ever sells half as many 86's as Mustang's or Camaro's in this country.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/01...-year-end.html

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/05...-2014-ytd.html

With Ford estimating 10k Mustangs per year in Europe they're poised to match Toyobaru's production numbers with only two markets. I'll agree that Toyobaru looks successful at this point but I'd love to hear your reasoning behind 'outsells all competition' because it quite simply does not. I'm not even going to touch your turbo comment, are you trying out to be a blog writer?

[Yoniyama]

I am so sorry, I did not have any American muscle car in mind when I claimed that the Toybaru outsold all its competition. I never thought muscle cars were competing against the Toybaru, Golf GTI, Hyundai coupe, Civic Coupe Si, etc. I apologise for my lack of imagination.

[calmtigers]

I know this conversation is about their profitability further keeping of the platform.

However, I'd like to point out that Toyota made record profits this year and are one of the best selling car companies (if not the best).

Not sure they have to worry too much about one platform not "overselling" like the others

[calmtigers]

I know this conversation is about their profitability further keeping of the platform.

However, I'd like to point out that Toyota made record profits this year and are one of the best selling car companies (if not the best).

Not sure they have to worry too much about one platform not "overselling" like the others

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Yoniyama

I am so sorry, I did not have any American muscle car in mind when I claimed that the Toybaru outsold all its competition. I never thought muscle cars were competing against the Toybaru, Golf GTI, Hyundai coupe, Civic Coupe Si, etc. I apologise for my lack of imagination.

I'm not trying to berate you or anything, just trying to understand your claim, I don't like it when people present falsehoods as fact.

Let's go through your competition:

Toyobaru: 2 Door, RWD, Coupe
GTI: 2-4 Door, FWD, Hatch
Hyundai Genesis: 2-4 Door, RWD, Coupe/Sedan
Honda Civic Si: 2-4 Door, FWD, Coupe/Sedan

Mustang: 2 Door, RWD, Coupe/Convert
Camaro: 2 Door, RWD, Coupe/Convert
Challenger: 2 Door RWD, Coupe

All for under $30k.

Bear in mind that VW, Hyundai and Honda don't disclose the sales numbers for their 2 door version, so any sales comparison should include that concession that the 4-door is included.

[campy]

Originally Posted by Yoniyama

I am so sorry, I did not have any American muscle car in mind when I claimed that the Toybaru outsold all its competition. I never thought muscle cars were competing against the Toybaru, Golf GTI, Hyundai coupe, Civic Coupe Si, etc. I apologise for my lack of imagination.

I think it's hard to define what competes with the FRS/BRZ. As far as sales go, you have to compare it to what everyone is cross-shopping it with. On this forum, there are plenty of "86 vs Camaro/Mustang" threads, so I'd consider those as sales-competitive cars.

I would imagine the main selling points of this car (in the new car market) are its price point and sporty features. So I would compare it to all other sporty cars within the $20-35k price range, including the Civic SI, GTI, Genesis, V6 Mustang, etc. The upper limit would probably be the Nissan 370z, which they recently price-dropped to compete with (I'm assuming) FRS/BRZ sales.

Other popular comparisons are the S2000, M3, Cayman, and WRX STi, but I wouldn't say there is much consumer overlap at their prices in the new-car market.

[poptart]

I'm in the market for a sports car. I test drove a black BRZ limited today. It's the only new car I can afford that interests me. Wouldn't even consider a mustang or camaro. My first car was an old corvette, and they are cool, but I'm not into muscle cars anymore.

I'm also considering either a used Lotus Elise or Porsche Cayman. Although the older Caymans have potential IMS bearing issues, so it's probably out of serious contention. I'm really smitten with Lotus, but there is no dealer support in my area and as a daily driver, an FRS/BRZ would be far more practical.

The BRZ was a blast to drive. Really easy to chuck it around. I ride a 130hp motorcycle, so it wasn't close to fast but I didn't think it was "underpowered" either.

The salesman on my test drive said they had sold a lot of them earlier this year but not as many lately. They had a white 2015 blue edition inside on the showroom floor, and had several limited editions on the lot. 2 white, 2 black, 1 blue, 1 red.

[Jegan_V]

Originally Posted by poptart

I'm in the market for a sports car. I test drove a black BRZ limited today. It's the only new car I can afford that interests me. Wouldn't even consider a mustang or camaro. My first car was an old corvette, and they are cool, but I'm not into muscle cars anymore.

I'm also considering either a used Lotus Elise or Porsche Cayman. Although the older Caymans have potential IMS bearing issues, so it's probably out of serious contention. I'm really smitten with Lotus, but there is no dealer support in my area and as a daily driver, an FRS/BRZ would be far more practical.

The BRZ was a blast to drive. Really easy to chuck it around. I ride a 130hp motorcycle, so it wasn't close to fast but I didn't think it was "underpowered" either.

The salesman on my test drive said they had sold a lot of them earlier this year but not as many lately. They had a white 2015 blue edition inside on the showroom floor, and had several limited editions on the lot. 2 white, 2 black, 1 blue, 1 red.

These cars I find have rather concentrated sales in specific areas rather than encompassing the whole nation. There are undoubtedly some areas where its likely going to be unpopular. Based on the sales in Canada there are 4300 FRS and 2200 BRZs that have been sold. Contrast that to the thousands of Mustangs sold in Canada...yet I barely see a Mustang around in my drives, but I see a lot of twins in the Greater Toronto Area. Heck I actually think its more common to see a twin than my version of the Impreza(drop eye/blob eye). I thought I was buying something rare as it catered to my wishlist of what I wanted in a car which I thought was too niche, oh well I'm glad others are enjoying it.

When I was helping my sister buy a Impreza the past few weeks, none of the Subaru dealers had many issues selling their BRZs, clearing the 2014s though is their primary goal and the last dealer noted they only had 1 more 2014 left, the rest were 2015s. The only thing I do wonder about FRS/BRZs in fact isn't whether they're selling or not, but more of curiosity on the ratio of AT to MT.

[poptart]

Originally Posted by Jegan_V

but I see a lot of twins in the Greater Toronto Area. Heck I actually think its more common to see a twin than my version of the Impreza(drop eye/blob eye). I thought I was buying something rare as it catered to my wishlist of what I wanted in a car which I thought was too niche, oh well I'm glad others are enjoying it.

When I was helping my sister buy a Impreza the past few weeks, none of the Subaru dealers had many issues selling their BRZs, clearing the 2014s though is their primary goal and the last dealer noted they only had 1 more 2014 left, the rest were 2015s. The only thing I do wonder about FRS/BRZs in fact isn't whether they're selling or not, but more of curiosity on the ratio of AT to MT.

On my way to the Subaru dealer, I stopped at a used BMW dealer after spotting a lava orange FRS from the street. It was a 2013 with only 3k miles. The sticker price was 29.9k, he said we can let you have it for 22.5k. I wasn't looking for that color, but thanked him for showing it to me anyways.

And then on the way home, I saw a WR Blue Pearl BRZ drive with custom gold wheels drive by. It looked really beautiful. There seem to be a lot of them in this area.

I have no idea how I'd decide on a color. I really liked the blue, but in person, the pearl white looked so awesome too. From internet pictures, I didn't like red or black before but in real life both looked great on the car too. I haven't seen a silver or dark gray metallic car yet.

The STI aero effects on the blue edition were impressive. They have little logos on them. The wheels were better than stock but I'd rather have a set of OZs or something. My biggest concern was the blue interior. It's ok but I like the regular limited interior better. And I ended up liking the cf panel on the '15 dash better than the silver dash on the '14 BRZs. It seems to have the same pattern as the "mustache" on the front bumper.

[juliog]

The 100k figure includes sales worldwide since launch (2012-2014), not just the last year.

In contrast, he Honda S2000 only sold 110K units worldwide during its whole lifetime (about 10 years).

In 2011, Mazda said they had sold 900K Miatas since 1989. I don't think they have reached 1M yet.

So all in all, I'd say the twins are doing pretty good.

[wheelhaus]

These discussions never seem to really go anywhere because it's speculation after speculation piled on top of opinion and hearsay, and they always go down the same path- OMG no more 86!, Good, it'll make it a collector's car and more valuable, But what about parts? What that's stupid, No what's stupid is that there's no factory turbo, nedz moar powar, Sales are fine, No they're not, OMG no more 86! repeat...

I'd be genuinely surprised if Subaru drops the FA20 soon. Consider the FJ and it's 15+ years of service and evolution. Subaru has a history of keeping engine blocks and chassis for a long time, using them in many different models, in both NA and TC versions, all the while making tweaks and updates year after year. The fact that TC variations of the FA are already being used in other models is testament and follows suit to that MO. Its already been proven they're not identical, but similar enough to use many of the same parts and tooling, sure, because that's good business practice and Subaru isn't stupid.

They may stop making the BRZ/FRS at some point, but again, if sales are decent it doesn't make sense unless it's severely impacting sales of other core models.